How do you know if you're a dual citizen or not?

[ozbeachbabe]

The recent resignations of Australian Senators has brought to light the dual citizen dilemma and whilst I have no intention of joining the political ranks any time soon I am curious to know what criteria countries use to determine who's a dual national.

I believe the latest esta application for the United States has a question about whether you are a dual national of certain countries. It would also be helpful to know if you ever get into strife in an overseas country which country you could call on for consular assistance.

In my case I was born in Australia but qualify for a UK passport due to my father born in the UK. I initially had an AU passport 1982-1987 then a UK one 1987-1997 (with an AU re-entry permit) as AU citizens were not required to enter/exit Australia on an Australian Passport at that time.

I next had an AU passport in 1993 and have only held AU passports since however I am still considered to be a dual national only is it only if I physically hold a valid UK passport at the time?

My brother has only held AU passports but obviously qualifies for a UK one so is he still considered to be a dual national despite never holding a UK passport ie solely on the basis Dad was born in the UK?

 

[clifford]

I would say you are both dual nationals. If you don't want to be, you would need to renounce one or the other.

BTW, I am a dual national, and it doesn't really bother me.

 

[ozbeachbabe]

I remember Rupert Murdoch having to renounce his Australian Citizenship back in 1985 in order to become a US Citizen so he could purchase a TV network. I believe back in 1985 you couldn't be both or maybe you could be US then acquire AU citizenship but not the other way around? I've seen plenty of people who hold both US and AU passports so something has obviously changed.

 

[ozjuice]

I'm a dual national too, but through choice. It's very useful. But....I also clearly know i am. I don't believe for one second that any of these so called pollies didn't understand their own positions.
If you have the opportunity to take up a national identity but don't...then you're not.

But i'd check with your mum first ;-)

 

[TomVexille]

Even though you haven't had a UK passport for years, you would still be a citizen (unless you have renounced it), which makes you a dual national. Passports are just ID documents after all.

IIRC the oath to gain US citizenship says something along the lines of renouncing fidelity to any foreign state.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

The recent resignations of Australian Senators has brought to light the dual citizen dilemma and whilst I have no intention of joining the political ranks any time soon I am curious to know what criteria countries use to determine who's a dual national.

I believe the latest esta application for the United States has a question about whether you are a dual national of certain countries. It would also be helpful to know if you ever get into strife in an overseas country which country you could call on for consular assistance.

In my case I was born in Australia but qualify for a UK passport due to my father born in the UK. I initially had an AU passport 1982-1987 then a UK one 1987-1997 (with an AU re-entry permit) as AU citizens were not required to enter/exit Australia on an Australian Passport at that time.

I next had an AU passport in 1993 and have only held AU passports since however I am still considered to be a dual national only is it only if I physically hold a valid UK passport at the time?

My brother has only held AU passports but obviously qualifies for a UK one so is he still considered to be a dual national despite never holding a UK passport ie solely on the basis Dad was born in the UK?

As TomV says - holding a passport is not necessarily a requirement to hold citizenship. Many Australians don't have a passport but they are still citizens of Australia. Same for the UK. You are a citizen until it is renounced or otherwise withdrawn from you.

However - there are some countries where you must hold a passport to maintain citizenship, for example Holland. If you live outside the Netherlands but haven't applied for a passport you will, after a period of absence, lose your citizenship once your passport expires. Other countries have rules preventing you from acquiring a dual citizenship and if you do, you will lose your original citizenship. But the UK doesn't fall in those categories.

 

[eric2011]

It would also be helpful to know if you ever get into strife in an overseas country which country you could call on for consular assistance,

I am dual and if got into trouble I would go to the embassy of the country of the passport that I used to enter that country

 

[Renato1]

Most countries have it that if one's parents are citizens of that country, their children are citizens of that country too, even if born overseas. Some countries like Australia have it that if one is born here, then one is a citizen of Australia - so it is not surprising that Australia winds up having more dual-citizens than most everywhere else.

Many people of my generation like me, found out they were dual citizens when they got a letter in the mail telling them they were being called up for National Service. The Carabinieri had been hunting for me at my uncle's place in Italy - and I then filled out the appropriate paperwork here, and spent the next 28 years in the Italian Military on Military Leave (while working for the Australian Department of Defence).

I think I read somewhere that if you want Australian Consular assistance, you have to have entered that country with an Australian passport (but I could be wrong). And Australian Consular assistance is pretty much amongst the best in the world in terms of coverage.

Regards,
Renato

 

[AisleSeat]

I'm a dual national and so is my wife. (No really, its not a Monty Python joke). I have UK/AUS and she has US/AUS.
Our children can be tri-national.
Only issue is that because i wasn't born in UK, I can't pass that citizenship on. Kids would have to be naturalised first (involving lots of paperwork and grandparents birth certificates and about 1000 pounds). We have until 18 to do it, or they can go live there for 5 years.

 

[OATEK]

What about where you have right by Ancestry to a work visa for the UK? Does that cross the line in regards to Sect 44: "[FONT=&amp]entitled to the rights or privileges of a subject or a citizen of a foreign power"?'

No right to a passport, but a right to work as if I was a citizen.[/FONT]

 

[JohnK]

I still don't quite understand why it matters. I am a dual national but hold Australian citizenship and passport and pay taxes here.

It's a shame I can't be in politics....

 

[theweaselsteve]

Yes. I don't really understand why it matters either. I do however, find it very difficult to believe that you could be a dual citizen and not know it. My wife and I are from the UK. She has had dual citizenship as long as she can remember as her Mother was born here. I applied for mine a couple of years ago. Our daughter was born here and is solely Australian. She could become a dual UK citizen (and probably will) but I believe there is a certain amount of paperwork involved. I can't believe you could become a citizen of any country without filling in paperwork.

 

[BacchusMarsh]

I can't believe you could become a citizen of any country without filling in paperwork.

Well, being born in some countries is enough in many instances.

 

[AisleSeat]

Yes. I don't really understand why it matters either. I do however, find it very difficult to believe that you could be a dual citizen and not know it. My wife and I are from the UK. She has had dual citizenship as long as she can remember as her Mother was born here. I applied for mine a couple of years ago. Our daughter was born here and is solely Australian. She could become a dual UK citizen (and probably will) but I believe there is a certain amount of paperwork involved. I can't believe you could become a citizen of any country without filling in paperwork.

If you and your wife were born in the UK and your daughter was born in Australia, you just need to register her as a British citizen and its as simple as that. She is then "British by descent".

 

[Renato1]

Well, being born in some countries is enough in many instances.

It's not many countries that give out citizenship for people just being born there.

That's why I don't understand references in this thread to people from Holland losing citizenship and the UK example cited.

Plainly - if children are born in a country that does not give them citizenship, and their parents' home country doesn't give them citizenship as suggested - then they would become stateless persons. I don't think that's allowed under UN conventions, which most everyone has signed up to.
Regards,
Renato

 

[maureeng]

Myself and husband both have dual nationality U.K./ Aus. In China we have to use British passport as that one has our china visas but when we go back to Aus we have to use our Australian passports.

 

[AisleSeat]

Plainly - if children are born in a country that does not give them citizenship, and their parents' home country doesn't give them citizenship as suggested - then they would become stateless persons. I don't think that's allowed under UN conventions, which most everyone has signed up to.
Regards,
Renato

Let's say I was in Australia on a 457 visa from the UK as a person "British by descent" and my wife was from the US also here on a 457 visa. If at that point in time we had a child, then:
a) they'd be ineligible to become an Australian citizen and no passport (you must at least be a permanent resident for your child to qualify as an Australian citizen at birth)
b) they'd be ineligible to become a British citizen and no passport (without a ton of paperwork and money to be naturalised as one)

As the child of a US citizen, they are automatically a US citizen, regardless of place of birth, and can apply for a US passport.

I think there'd be real problems if both parents were "British by descent" and had a baby outside the UK (except if in countries where birthright citizenship applies).

 

[moa999]

Italy, among a number of Euro counties has unlimited descendant rights.
Paternal line from (I'm guessing 1861 - Italy nationalism) and maternal from 1946.

But I think (at least in terms of s44 for the Aussie parliament) that it only makes you Eligible for Italian citizenship.
If you don't apply (or your parents don't apply, even if you are 25) then it doesn't count, at least as the parties are concerned, although I don't think this has been fully tested in the High Court.

Otherwise almost every politican with European heritage would likely be disqualified -- would not leave many

Carnavan's case seems different again (in that at least it appears that as an adult he was given citizenship without his consent)

 

[ozbeachbabe]

In the cases we've seen in Federal Parliament the focus has been on dual nationality by way of being born overseas. There hasn't yet been a case of someone being born in Australia and being an 'accidental' citizen because a parent was a citizen of another country. Matt Canavan's case was different still because in his case it had to be applied for because his maternal grandmother was an Italian citizen.

Former Greens Senator Larissa Walters was born in Canada to Australian parents but at the time of her birth if you were born in Canada you automatically qualified for citizenship. The rules changed one week later. She left Canada when she was 11 months old and believed she only held Australian citizenship.

Larissa Waters resigns: Second Greens senator forced to quit over dual citizenship

Former Greens Senator Scott Ludlam was born in New Zealand left when he was three although he and his family didn't settle in Australia until he was nine so not sure where he was in the six years in between. He didn't became an Australian citizen until he was in his teens and assumed that was the end of his NZ Citizenship but alas as we know now it was not.

https://www.theguardian.com/austral...er-finding-out-he-has-new-zealand-citizenship

Sections 44 of the constitution has certainly open a pandoras box so will be interesting to see who's next to tender their resignation.

Section 44 of the Constitution – Parliament of Australia

Yes. I don't really understand why it matters either. I do however, find it very difficult to believe that you could be a dual citizen and not know it. My wife and I are from the UK. She has had dual citizenship as long as she can remember as her Mother was born here. I applied for mine a couple of years ago. Our daughter was born here and is solely Australian. She could become a dual UK citizen (and probably will) but I believe there is a certain amount of paperwork involved. I can't believe you could become a citizen of any country without filling in paperwork.

If you and your wife were born in the UK and your daughter was born in Australia, you just need to register her as a British citizen and its as simple as that. She is then "British by descent".

I'm not sure whether you're already a British citizen purely because your parents are from the UK or if you need the paperwork to be done to formalise it.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

I'm not sure whether you're already a British citizen purely because your parents are from the UK or if you need the paperwork to be done to formalise it.

This depends whether the parents are themselves British 'by descent'. If they are, british nationality does not automatically pass to children born outside the UK. If they are citizens other than by descent, nationality will pass.