5th Freedom Flights - why don't Qantas/VA negotiate more of these

[browski]

As we all know, the Jetstarization of Qantas has made it unlikely that QF will have any new routes in the next decade.

VA appears to see growth as through codeshares rather than many new routes on VA metal.

But......maybe the 3rd way is for these 2 airlines to increase their passenger loads is by negotiating more 5th Freedom routes.
Admittedly, the ones Qantas do now are duds:
SIN-LHR
HKG-LHR
SIN-FRA
SIN-BOM
BKK-LHR

....but I suspect this is because they are mainly long-haul. What could be a winner is a few additional "short" routes at the end of a long haul route.
Here are some examples that I think would have some appeal:

HKG-PVG
NRT-ICN
SIN-KUL
BKK-KUL
LHR-JFK
FRA-CDG
BOM-DXB
POM/HKG-MNL

So my questions.....

1. are 5th Freedom Flights just ridiculously hard to negotiate?
2. SQ/MH/EK/CX seem to perform a lot of these flights, are they profitable?
3. Would these flights be competing with their current and future Jetstar Asia model, so don't bother?

 

[bam71]

As we all know, the Jetstarization of Qantas has made it unlikely that QF will have any new routes in the next decade.

VA appears to see growth as through codeshares rather than many new routes on VA metal.

But......maybe the 3rd way is for these 2 airlines to increase their passenger loads is by negotiating more 5th Freedom routes.
Admittedly, the ones Qantas do now are duds:
SIN-LHR
HKG-LHR
BKK-FRA
SIN-BOM

....but I suspect this is because they are mainly long-haul. What could be a winner is a few additional "short" routes at the end of a long haul route.
Here are some examples that I think would have some appeal:

HKG-PVG
NRT-ICN
SIN-KUL
BKK-KUL
LHR-JFK
FRA-CDG
BOM-DXB
POM/HKG-MNL

So my questions.....

1. are 5th Freedom Flights just ridiculously hard to negotiate?
2. SQ/MH/EK/CX seem to perform a lot of these flights, are they profitable?
3. Would these flights be competing with their current and future Jetstar Asia model, so don't bother?

From what I understand they are difficult. For eg QF has 5th freedom rights to travel SIN-PAR but the French Gov wont allow QF any more then 3 flights a week but to make it profitable QF wants at least 5 days a week. Its not just one government that grants it.

 

[markis10]

Short flights wont work, and have not worked in the past, because you end up competing with a local who can beat you on frequency so you have to play on price, such as the AY flights ex BKK in the past and the current trans tasman situation.

 

[williamsf1]

Good question ... the short answer is it is all to hard ..... It is hard enough to get a code share agreement (just look at Delta and V Australia ) . They take years of negation between Governments and allot of give and take..... Normally combined under a free trade agreement

 

[browski]

Short flights wont work, and have not worked in the past, because you end up competing with a local who can beat you on frequency so you have to play on price, such as the AY flights ex BKK in the past and the current trans tasman situation.

Hmmmmmm, it has not worked in the past for whom? Certainly SQ/MH/CX/EK seems to find them useful.
Frequency is not an issue. 1 flight per day will be more than enough for the Qantas/One World/Velocity aficionado.
If QF107 LAX-JFK was a 5th Freedom flight (or is that technically 9th Freedom?), it would be full every day, regardless of the competition. Similarly, DXB-BOM would be a very attractive QF/One World offering as part of the DXB-BOM-SIN-AUS route; currently AUS*-DXB only serviced by CX.

*By the way, is there a collective acronym for the combined Australian airports?

 

[markis10]

Hmmmmmm, it has not worked in the past for whom? Certainly SQ/MH/CX/EK seems to find them useful.
Frequency is not an issue. 1 flight per day will be more than enough for the Qantas/One World/Velocity aficionado.

Has not worked in the past using the examples I have given, such as AY ex BKK. They are great for us looking for cheap flights, but offering airlines a viable income stream no, look at why VA exited their short flight market, it did not suit the equipment, same goes for QF. As for NY-JFK being full, I doubt it, they cannot even fill a 747 on the LAX-NY leg so I dont know how you can say they will fill the next leg!

 

[browski]

Has not worked in the past using the examples I have given, such as AY ex BKK. They are great for us looking for cheap flights, but offering airlines a viable income stream no, look at why VA exited their short flight market, it did not suit the equipment, same goes for QF. As for NY-JFK being full, I doubt it, they cannot even fill a 747 on the LAX-NY leg so I dont know how you can say they will fill the next leg!

LAX-JFK is using an A330 and would easily be filled if you could buy tickets for that flight.
But back to my main question, if these 5th freedom flights are not working why are there so many of them?

There are 8 x 5th Freedom flights on BKK-HKG alone!
and we all know that SIN-BKK and CGK-SIN on CX have been around for a very long time.
Gee, even Lufthansa are in the act on the KUL/BKK run (as well as RJ)
And Sri Lankan Airlines are on the SIN-KUL run.

Must be money there somewhere.

 

[Keith009]

Short flights wont work, and have not worked in the past, because you end up competing with a local who can beat you on frequency so you have to play on price, such as the AY flights ex BKK in the past and the current trans tasman situation.

I believe QF has serviced KUL via SIN before. The KUL tag-on was terminated for much the same reasons you mentioned.

Once upon a time there were upteen different carriers doing BKK-SIN-BKK tag-ons. I believe CX is the only 5th freedom carrier on the route these days. With rare exceptions, the schedules were awkward, and consequently they almost literally gave seats away on those tag-ons. There are also the higher crewing requirements and associated extra costs to consider, which apparently was why LX terminated the tag-on in favour of codesharing on SQ flights to ZRH.

 

[markis10]

There are 8 x 5th Freedom flights on BKK-HKG alone!
and we all know that SIN-BKK and CGK-SIN on CX have been around for a very long time.
Gee, even Lufthansa are in the act on the KUL/BKK run (as well as RJ)
And Sri Lankan Airlines are on the SIN-KUL run.

Must be money there somewhere.

And none of those routes are making money for the airlines operating them, how many airlines have pulled out of SIN-KUL alone? I think you will find many of those flights operate because its cheaper than leaving the aircraft sitting on the ground, not because they are red hot commercially viable propositions. My last CX SIN-BKK had 22 people on a 777 on a Monday!

 

[browski]

I think you will find many of those flights operate because its cheaper than leaving the aircraft sitting on the ground, not because they are red hot commercially viable propositions.

Do you mean the airport fees to the airline (for just sitting there) is significant enough to justify a short trip (where they still lose, but not as much?). Is that really true?

 

[oz_mark]

Australian air carriers have a number of 5th freedom rights that they are not exercising, and when they do are sometimes done through codeshares.

As for the OP, some of the suggestions seem more akin to cabotage?

 

[browski]

As for the OP, some of the suggestions seem more akin to cabotage?

Cabotage is the same as 9th Freedom (of the Air) rights - the only example above of that was if QF sold tickets on LAX-JFK; (or at a stretch HKG-PVG)
All the other examples were 5th Freedom.

Codeshares like a Qantas flight number on the BKK-HEL flight (on AY metal) do not require 5th freedom rights- do they?

 

[harvyk]

*By the way, is there a collective acronym for the combined Australian airports?

I guess you could use AU if you want to use a collective acronym... I originally thought you meant AUS = Austin Texas...

5th freedom only works for either really long haul flights, where a good proportion of pax from the original place (such as SYD) want to end up at the destination (eg LHR), so really the 5th freedom allows a technical stop (eg SIN) to happen. It also allows the airline to also sell SYD-SIN, SIN-LHR and SYD-LHR using one flight number and one a/c, but covering a much larger number of potential pax's needs.

The other is where ground fees at the airport make it unecconomical to keep the aircraft parked for long periods of time. eg DXB - SYD - AKL. Really there is enough TT options alreadey without EK, but it costs a lot for EK to have a plane sitting on the ground waiting for the return to DXB flight. Where as fill it up with pax and freight, provided it ends up cheaper than having a plane sitting around their happy.