A "scheduled" delay??

[kevrosmith]

Excuse me? What's happening here? Seems VA is creating an on-purpose delay by using an aircraft for a flight whose inbound schedule is set to arrive after the scheduled departure time ... VA797 BNE-CNS is scheduled to depart at 19:45. However, it's operating aircraft is coming from ROK and is schedule to land on-time at 20:35.... !?!

Virgin, if you don't have enough aircraft, then don't schedule the flight....!?!?

VFF... my question to you is, is this a standard practice, and should I expect it more in the future? I'd certainly appreciate to know so that when I am choosing flights and airlines based on schedule, I'll know whether Virgin is going to build in on-purpose delays or not, and choose an airline I can more rely to fly its schedule.

Seems it's not a once-off tongiht... FlightAware shows me it's happened a couple of times now.

Inbound operating flight:



Outbound flight:

 

[kevrosmith]

It seems they are doing the same trick on the SYD-CNS flight tonight also...

Inbound flight to SYD:



Outbound flight SYD-CNS...



Sure, I get that CNS is predominantly a leisure destination, but really, this is unacceptable... isn't it? There are business people on these flights, who do have to get up the next day for work... and to have a delay like this purposely built in and have arrival times delayed to midnight is just unacceptable.

 

[gwilli1]

To be honest , I think you are over analyzing the situation . Whats not to say there is an operational problem with these a/c's servicing these flights to CNS , where the best assessed solution by VA Ops is that they stay in BNE & SYD respectively to be serviced , instead of both a/c being in CNS o/nite. Im sure VA would prefer not to reschedule flights but they would have a substantiated reason for doing this. You would have much more to whinge about if they cancelled the flights instead.

 

[Velocity Frequent Flyer]

VFF... my question to you is, is this a standard practice, and should I expect it more in the future? I'd certainly appreciate to know so that when I am choosing flights and airlines based on schedule, I'll know whether Virgin is going to build in on-purpose delays or not, and choose an airline I can more rely to fly its schedule.

Hi Kev,
I can assure you that the team doesn't create ‘on-purpose’ delays.

As far as what happened on that day (23 May), VA797 was due to be operated by an aircraft who had to be taken into the hangar due to engineering issues after arriving into BNE. Our team then had to re-shuffle the schedule and source the next available E190 arriving into BNE, which happened to be the aircraft coming from CNS. This CNS flight was of course landing on time but wasn’t the original operating aircraft for VA797.
The confusion appears in this instance to be with the screens at the airport not updating to reflect this.

 

[kevrosmith]

VFF, while I appreciate your reply, and of course understand that things happen which upset normal scheduling, the information you've provided isn't entirely accurate.

VA797 (an E190) was operated by VH-ZPH. This aircraft came from ROK as VA1252, scheduled to land at 20:35, and it did in fact arrive on time. The screens were displaying the correct information. I also know this as the Lounge Angel also looked at the inbound flight and told me it was coming from ROK and was on-time.

VH-ZPH movements on FlightAware for 22-May to 24-May:


(Note: I've included the first movements for 24-May in each screen shot, so you have to look at line 2 to see the last movement for 23-May).

Sure, it looks like there are a few E190s arrived into BNE and that sat there:

VH-ZPC


VH-ZPN


Which one went into the Hangar? If it was ZPC (and seeing it could've gone RS at 12:30pm, that would make sense), why wasn't ZPN used for VA797? It was on the ground from 18:08 onwards? When I arrived from SYD, I do recall seeing an E190 on the ground at gate 48/49.

And further to this, ZPB operated VA1225 from CBR-BNE, and while its scheduled arrival time is 19:10, it landed at 19:47... but was still almost an hour before ZPH arrived from ROK.
VH-ZPB


Surely VA's ops people could do a better job at real-time re-scheduling the aircraft... or do they all go home at 17:00? That's a shame, as I didn't get home until after midnight, after a long day at work.

Also, while an aircraft out of service and disrupting schedules may also explain the delay on VA1429 SYD-CNS (operated by VH-ZPQ), it doesn't necessarily explain why the both night time flights operating into CNS were selected to receive the butt-end of all these disruptions. Was CNS selected as it is deemed as a leisure destination and therefore, the impact of delays may be considered less harmful compared with other more prominent business markets?

It's probably unfortunate for VA that this occurred, as I was talking with a fellow J passenger, and he indicated that this was his first Virgin J flight ever, having seen the marketing and thought he'd give it a try. It didn't look as though he was entirely impressed with how things eventuated. I may be wrong, but I doubt that the first impression was memorable for him. (He was seated in 1D if you want to follow up from the manifest).

Of course, I'm not trying to underestimate the complexities and challenges in managing operational schedules and handling changes that occur. The Flight Displays were accurate in this instance. For whatever reason, this is what ended up happening. The pilot tried to blame BNE airport delays (this was not true) and all the CSM knew was that they too had to sit around waiting for the aircraft to arrive from ROK. It also looked like our J meals had sat around enduring the same delay as us pax, as it looked a bit worse for wear by the time we were served dinner.

Am I over-analysing this? Perhaps, but I guess that's why I'd like to think my clients get me back to work as an analyst .

 

[markis10]

Am I over-analysing this? Perhaps, but I guess that's why I'd like to think my clients get me back to work as an analyst .

Of course you are over-analysing it, while making the mistake of not having the full picture available to you re cause and effect,using flightaware is erroneous to start with as Australia is outside its reliable tracking area, you also have not mentioned crew, who dont track with aircraft!

 

[kevrosmith]

Using flightaware is erroneous to start with as Australia is outside its reliable tracking area

Yeah, but not if I can verify the info with Metron.

 

[markis10]

Yeah, but not if I can verify the info with Metron.

Doesnt change the fact you dont have the whole picture, 797 is normally operated by the flight arriving from Canberra, on this occasion the aircraft went tech (VH-ZPB) so they needed to use a different aircraft, if DJ did not have enough aircraft it would be late all the time:

 

[straitman]

Yeah, but not if I can verify the info with Metron.

There are many other factors to consider other than what a/c is immediately available. This includes such things as the maintenance schedule that can have huge flow on effects if an a/c is subbed and ends up in the wrong location when scheduled maintenance is needed.

 

[markis10]

There are many other factors to consider other than what a/c is immediately available. This includes such things as the maintenance schedule that can have huge flow on effects if an a/c is subbed and ends up in the wrong location when scheduled maintenance is needed.

Agree, would love to get a tour of an airlines OPs room and talk to some of the operators about the choices they make and the reasons why, having worked in ops at the CAA I have some idea of the considerations involved but hardly the full picture. While most passengers believe the line "its all about you" recently used by one airline, reality is that decisions are made that are expected to have the least impact on all parties concerned as the motivating factor.

Aircraft normally operate a set cycle, if you want to get an idea of possible delays do some research on what flight is normally the preceding route before your flight and look at its status re ETA, even then there could be a crew change or an unforseen tech issue.

 

[drewbles]

VFF, while I appreciate your reply, and of course understand that things happen which upset normal scheduling, the information you've provided isn't entirely accurate.

<snip>

Gunning for a job in Flight Ops/Scheduling are we?

 

[Velocity Frequent Flyer]

Sorry Kevrosmith, but as Markis and Straitman have said, there is a much bigger picture in play when it comes to flight scheduling (one which personally give me a headache just thinking about the forward planning of aircraft and crew positioning!)
Hopefully next time any adjustment of your flight schedule won't result in you being up so late!