Air Marshalls stealing your F seats? Airlines seem to think so

[thewinchester]

On Gadling this morning, might explain why those F upgrades are so scarce out of the US

Airlines to federal air marshals - get out of our first class cabins and sit in coach
by Scott Carmichael (RSS feed) on Oct 2nd 2010 at 12:00PM

A debate is brewing amongst the airlines about the effectiveness of federal air marshals sitting in the first class cabin.

The current air marshal program was based on the events of 9/11, and the fact the would-be terrorists would attempt to take over the coughpit. As past events have shown, the "new" method used by terrorists is to create their mayhem in the coach cabin, using explosives. Having the air marshal up front in a comfy chair isn't going to help much if the majority of issues are in the rear.

Also, after 9/11, coughpit doors were reinforced, making it almost impossible to storm the coughpit without some major tools.

At the moment, air marshals expect first class seating, and in some cases, a long haul international flight could have three or four marshals taking up pricey seats. Of course, the airlines are quick to point out that this is not a revenue issue, but purely based off safety and the appropriate response to new threats. That may very well be, but I know that paying passengers are not thrilled when they can't get a first class seat simply because a bunch of air marshals feel they need to be up front.

 

[samh004]

At the moment, air marshals expect first class seating, and in some cases, a long haul international flight could have three or four marshals taking up pricey seats.

There must be some pretty at risk flights then… but I don’t see the need for that many, especially in F, if the the coughpit doors are a lot more solid and lately all we’ve seen is guys burning their crotches at the back of the plane.

I wonder if the Air Marshalls are just on US-airlines or if they make it across to other airlines too. Are they required on all flights, or just if an airline wants them there?

 

[wtolmie]

They must be getting alot of complaints from all the FF's. I recently flew AA from SFO- ORD return a YUP fare, and there was no less than 25 people in the Upgrade list on the screens at the boarding gate.. Can imagine they'd be pissed #1 at missing out and #2 especially by a Marshall.. hehe..

Got to love the YUP fares..

 

[codash1099]

I would guess that rushing the coughpit wouldn't be the method favoured by terrorists today. There are any number of other ways that could be used to "persuade" a pilot to let them in. So having a marshal is F to trip them up as they rush by isn't especially clever.

The question would be "what class of travel are the terrorists likely to choose"? The answer would probably be any and every class.

 

[ozbeachbabe]

Airlines to federal air marshals - get out of our first class cabins and sit in coach
by Scott Carmichael (RSS feed) on Oct 2nd 2010 at 12:00PM

Having the air marshal up front in a comfy chair isn't going to help much if the majority of issues are in the rear.

.....but what about if the issues are up the front of the aircraft? It makes sense to me to have Air Marshals closest to the flight deck.

Terrorists don't just travel on super saver fares, what cabin were they all seated in during the 9/11 attacks? IIRC it was First Class. Just because airlines have reinforced coughpit doors shouldn't make any difference.

I don't know about other AFFers on this forum but I was unaware all terrorists had banded together to adopt a "new" method, restricting them to coach/economy travel only.

At the moment, air marshals expect first class seating, and in some cases, a long haul international flight could have three or four marshals taking up pricey seats.

.....but I know that paying passengers are not thrilled when they can't get a first class seat simply because a bunch of air marshals feel they need to be up front.

How do these paying passengers (assuming Air Marshals travel FOC) know that Air Marshals are in fact on that flight, bit of a wild assumption isn't it?

Does this journalist know for a fact that air marshals travel gratis or has he just made this assumption? Do they not travel on paid tickets charged to the Federal Govt, a cost which is ultimately borne by the taxpayer.

Why restrict animosity to just Air Marshals? Maybe a bunch of CEO's have paid full first class fares & therefore taken the last seats. Maybe people who read AFF have bought a KUP fare & deprived some Nigel of a ODU!

Wonder if he ever applied to be an Air Marshal & got a knock back? The article seems to scream of sour grapes to me.

Slow news day for Scotty I think!

 

[oz_mark]

http://www.gadling.com/2010/10/02/airlines-to-federal-air-marshals-get-out-of-our-first-class-ca
.....but what about if the issues are up the front of the aircraft? It makes sense to me to have Air Marshals closest to the flight deck.

Terrorists don't just travel on super saver fares, what cabin were they all seated in during the 9/11 attacks? IIRC it was First Class. Just because airlines have reinforced coughpit doors shouldn't make any difference.

I don't know about other AFFers on this forum but I was unaware all terrorists had banded together to adopt a "new" method, restricting them to coach/economy travel only.

Terrorists are pretty adept at spotting weaknesses in any security system. If you have first class covered with marshalls, and you know that they don't like sitting in economy, seems reasonable that they will look for ways that exploit that piece of knowledge.

I would have thought that their cabin placement would have been a bit more random than just up front.

 

[samh004]

I would have thought that their cabin placement would have been a bit more random than just up front.

One in each cabin would make more sense, if they were going to have more than 1.

As for how anyone would know it’s an Air Marshall, surely they’re not indulging in the food and drink, and not sleeping when the cabin goes to sleep Makes it pretty obvious.

 

[blueflamenco]

There must be some pretty at risk flights then… but I don’t see the need for that many, especially in F, if the the coughpit doors are a lot more solid and lately all we’ve seen is guys burning their crotches at the back of the plane.

I wonder if the Air Marshalls are just on US-airlines or if they make it across to other airlines too. Are they required on all flights, or just if an airline wants them there?

They are deployed internationally too, this can be at least 6 on an international flight. You can be sure that 6 agents will not be all sitting up front together.

Airlines don't have much say in whether they want them there or not. By law airlines are required to provide a seat to an air marshal in the cabin requested. They are on selected flights.

 

[blueflamenco]

Terrorists are pretty adept at spotting weaknesses in any security system. If you have first class covered with marshalls, and you know that they don't like sitting in economy, seems reasonable that they will look for ways that exploit that piece of knowledge.

I would have thought that their cabin placement would have been a bit more random than just up front.

Cabin placement is not always up front, it depends on the flight and the risk for each individual flight.

In any case, where they are sitting isn't really of much relevance if the major terrorism act we are referring to was an inside job.

 

[medhead]

For mine terrorist hijackings of aircraft is over. They've blown that method of attack as passenger now "know" that they will be killed. So I would expect them to fight back. Pilots also know not the open the door no matter what as that means more people are going to be killed outside the aircraft.

Besides terrorist methods constantly evolve. Why would they use the same method twice when the people they are attacking will be prepared the second time. They will be looking for something new. Meanwhile here we are throwing resources at shutting the gate after the horse has bolted.

 

[samh004]

Meanwhile here we are throwing resources at shutting the gate after the horse has bolted.

Technically "we" aren't throwing resources at it. Only America is using taxpayer money for Air Marshalls, right? It's their money.

 

[thewinchester]

Technically "we" aren't throwing resources at it. Only America is using taxpayer money for Air Marshalls, right? It's their money.

Nope, we Aussies are throwing taxpayer money down this train as well and have been since December 2001.

Air security officers

Air security officers are armed Australian Federal Police (AFP) officers responsible for the containment or resolution of high-risk security incidents on domestic and international flights.

These specially trained AFP officers travel on selected Australian domestic and international flights, providing security against the threat of hijack and other high-risk incidents that may affect safety and security.

Air security officers blend in with other passengers and could be on any flight. They are deployed in response to current threat assessments and as part of the AFP’s ongoing deterrence strategy.

...continues...

Air security officers began operating on Australian domestic flights in December 2001 and expanded to include international flights in December 2003.

According to a report in The Australian dated February 2009, the program cost taxpayers AUD 55 million p/a.

 

[samh004]

Nope, we Aussies are throwing taxpayer money down this train as well and have been since December 2001.

According to a report in The Australian dated February 2009, the program cost taxpayers AUD 55 million p/a.

Surely this should be a tax on tickets rather than taxpayers?

 

[medhead]

Technically "we" aren't throwing resources at it. Only America is using taxpayer money for Air Marshalls, right? It's their money.

Not only the Australian air marshals that thewinchester mentioned. But also these walk through scanners, that some company has developed and is trying to sell, that the government seems to be buying.

 

[JeniSkunk]

Surely this should be a tax on tickets rather than taxpayers?

Because that mob of Aussie air cops are an internal division of the AFP, ALL Aussie taxpayers wind up paying for those air cops.

Jenifur Charne

 

[Flashback]

Maybe airport security should do their job in the first place rather than having to rely on Air Marshals, unless I'm missing something?

 

[straitman]

Maybe airport security should do their job in the first place rather than having to rely on Air Marshals, unless I'm missing something?

They are each just a cog in the big wheel. ie spread the resources so the bad guys have to think carefully about every part of ever move.

 

[samh004]

Maybe airport security should do their job in the first place rather than having to rely on Air Marshals, unless I'm missing something?

All security on the ground does is make sure you’re not carrying something onto the plane… if the terrorists big idea is just to shoulder charge the door until it’s open, nothing the security personnel on the ground can do to stop him.

 

[jb747]

....There are any number of other ways that could be used to "persuade" a pilot to let them in.

Don't think so. Any pilot who allows entry is simply dead. I can't see too many choosing this as a viable option.

 

[NYCguy]

Don't think so. Any pilot who allows entry is simply dead. I can't see too many choosing this as a viable option.

Agreed. I just can't imagine what sort of "persuasion" could compel a pilot to open that door.