Choosing QFF - real world benefits?

[Moopere]

Hi folks,

Been a member for a little while now but only recently started posting. Its a steep learning curve but thanks to all the friendly folks here I am learning a lot.

Apologies in advance, I'm a details guy who loves to work out how the 'machine' works. What will make this post challenging to read is that I'm also a newbie in this area.

It is becoming clear to me that as work doesn't send me away much and flights are generally going to be under my own steam, I'm going to serve myself better choosing a single local rewards program, QFF or Velocity. Probable I won't fly more than 2-3 domestic and a single international a year so building up sufficient worthwhile status and/or points in more than one program is a bit remote.

So I'm doing research and constantly hitting my own lack of knowledge and experience. For instance, in researching QFF; I did a couple of rough comparisons based upon flights I'm likely to take next year:

======================================================
PER - MEL, dummy dates 19Apr out, 27 Apr in.

Chose around about the cheapest flights on the QF website, checked the cash price and the ASA price:

Red-E, $518 or 52,214 points return
Fully Flex, $1838 or 130,724 points return (?? Why would anyone book these?)
Business, $3550 or 85,980 points return

As we know the cash price and although Qantas is careful to state that there is no fixed relationship between points and dollars, in these scenarios we can work out that:

Y/Rede = $518 / 52,214 = $0.0099 / point, counts as discount economy, earns 3364 points and 40SC

J = $3550 / 85980 = $0.041 / point, counts as business, earns 4206 points and 160SC

If you are short of points then QF will sell them to you at booking time for about $0.0091 through $0.0099 depending on the flight.
======================================================

Tempting to stop here because there are 'what the' questions enough. But I was particularly bemused by international flight results:

---------------------------------------------------------------------
PER - CDG , dummy dates 19Apr out, 27 Apr in

Red-e $2701 or 278,347 points return
Flex saver $4366 or 454,564 points return
Exclusive Business (no refunds) $7681 or 806,431 points return

Red-e = $0.0097 / point, earns 18,488 points back (effectively $0.01/point then). SC = unknown as the QF calculator doesn't think QF flys to Paris

Flex saver = $0.0096 / point, earns 18,488 points back ($0.01/point)

Excl Business = $0.0095 / point, earns 23,112 points back ($0.0098 / point)

Again, if too low on points you can buy them for about $0.0099 / point
---------------------------------------------------------------------

So, in pretty much all the scenarios I've run, of which the above is only a small subset, aside from some really good specials for domestic business we seem to be running at 1% discount due to points with QFF if you actually use QF flights.

Given that the way points are valued in points n pay ($0.0099/point) you'd be better of simply using cash. Business ticket to CDG for cash = $7681, or 806,431 points = $7983 (granted, you can't do this, you -need- points for the points + pay thing, still extrapolating you can see that the dollar spend is apparently not worthwhile except as a gateway to using otherwise valueless points)

Righto then, whats bothering my tiny brain?

- As the names of the various programs suggest, these systems are really for _frequent flyers_ not casual flyers like me. The loyalty bit kicks in -after- the frequency bit.

- For frequent flyers sent about the place by their employers the FF points and related rewards is really a form of fringe benefit. It shouldn't be motivating anyone to do anything different but forms a nice bit of icing on a cake you are going to eat anyway.

- For frequent flyers who fly under their own capacity, the extra few percent off full ticket price, better treatment and other goodies like lounge access only start to kick in if you are truly a frequent flyer. For casual flyers you are probably better off buying single entry lounge access and paying for other bits n pieces as you go.

- Paying surcharges on CC transactions of anything like 1% or above makes the points gained a false economy.

or ... is the big smile and the effort really about snagging those 40K point J class domestic fares which would otherwise not be available to you if you only traded cash?

Note that for business users pushing millions through their cards, or for those employees getting sent about the place by their bosses and reaping the 'fringe benefit' of some extra niceties I can certainly see the value.

I'm starting to wonder though, for me, putting maybe $100K through a couple of cards a year + 4 flights of which only 1 is likely to be o/s, the QFF program doesn't appear to offer much that justifies even bothering with the scheme.

Interested in folks views. Next job for me is to have a long look at Velocity to see if things are much different.

Moo

 

[AnonymousCoward]

Red-e = $0.0097 / point, earns 18,488 points back (effectively $0.01/point then). SC = unknown as the QF calculator doesn't think QF flys to Paris

QF doesn't fly to Paris. Best you can do is a codeshare on Air France (from Singapore) or use BA/IB etc from another point in Europe.

- As the names of the various programs suggest, these systems are really for _frequent flyers_ not casual flyers like me. The loyalty bit kicks in -after- the frequency bit.

There are points - joining QFF allows you to accumulate and redeem points. You don't need to fly a huge amount to get something for free eventually.

Then there is status: status does require some flying. 3-4 flights/year isn't really a lot of flying, and you can't really expect much back from QF unless those 3-4 flights are making a decent amount of money for QFF (think J/F long haul flights).

Ultimately the benefits have to paid for somehow - and that means extracting profit from the flyer in the first place

 

[Moopere]

QF doesn't fly to Paris. Best you can do is a codeshare on Air France (from Singapore) or use BA/IB etc from another point in Europe.

Yes, I saw that. The SC calculator at QF just couldn't deal with it though. Insisted that PER to SIN was only done by Jetstar and I'd have to check their own points calculator and then 'good luck' with the SIN to CDG leg.

Its only a simple tool - there are others about which I've not used for building scenarios yet.

There are points - joining QFF allows you to accumulate and redeem points. You don't need to fly a huge amount to get something for free eventually.

Sure, I do understand there is some point to it all, but I guess I'm trying to make a value judgement against time spent. I'm pretty time poor and spending hours and days trying to save three dollars fifty from the price of a toaster at the QFF store just doesn't seem to be value.

Then there is status: status does require some flying. 3-4 flights/year isn't really a lot of flying, and you can't really expect much back from QF unless those 3-4 flights are making a decent amount of money for QFF (think J/F long haul flights).

Yep. This is where my mind was going. 4 flights a year and probably Y for most, isn't a big money earner therefore I don't expect QF to pay much attention. Its sort of my point really. For those of us not pushing business spend through awards cards, or not being sent on significant miles reaping adventures by our employers, is there really anything worthwhile in following the QFF program?

Even with the J/F flights, unless you are doing a fair number of them you're only looking at about 1-2% savings given the conversion rate. Even then, for me, the biggest perk sounds like lounge access at Gold status, which I'd enjoy anyway with the J/F flights. If I'm doing Y flights I'd probably be financially better off just stumping up for Qantas Club membership I think (or even single entry vouchers). 700SC for Gold entry is quite a number of rather expensive J flights.

.... or is it the points spend of the 'special' ASA flights that really count?

I actually "get" the flying for its own sake thing. I enjoy flying and I enjoy seeing new places. Perhaps for someone like me, the hobby value in it all is gaining the maximum SC and rewards points from a minimum of spend via close watching of the often seen special pricing on J seats via ASA?

But then, as per the point of this post, perhaps I'd be better of pursuing the Velocity program? We'll see, they are next on the investigative search

Ultimately the benefits have to paid for somehow - and that means extracting profit from the flyer in the first place

Yes, of course, I do understand. I'm trying hard not to come across as screaming at the wind. I understand that there is never going to be a true free lunch in this type of scenario. Ultimately, someone has to pay. If you get the benefit of points accrued through business flying then its a type of fringe benefit to your employment. 1% of the cost of flights bourne by your employer refunded back to you personally to enjoy in ways that perhaps you wouldn't spend your own money on.

 

[cove]

Well Moopere if you have $100k that goes on cards I would start there with building between 100k and 150k of points by using a careful process of credit card selection.
Then if it is QF then Silver gets you a better seat which would involve doing quick short hops as JASAs on the lowest points costs to run up 250 status credits.
You then redeem points on Classic rather than Any Seat.
192k points in J on QF classic to LAX and back could make your points worth about 6 cents each.
There are threads on Amex and Woolies everyday cards that are helpful.

 

[Awesom Andy]

For the very casual flyers who don't run points on their cards, I think it is still a useful tool to try to get something. For example, getting a return discount economy class ticket between Sydney and Singapore would already give you enough points for a $50 shopping voucher. This probably isn't the best use of points, but you could at least think of it as having a 5% cash back (or there abouts) on your discount economy ticket.

 

[Moopere]

Hi Cove,

Well Moopere if you have $100k that goes on cards I would start there with building between 100k and 150k of points by using a careful process of credit card selection.

Yes. Indeed this is I suppose what I'm doing and partly what this post is about.

There is not enough spend or enough flying going on to spread myself among different programs. This thread came about after spending quite some time doing whatifs and scenario's on the QF /QFF web site.

Amex Plat Edge implies DJ for domestic travel as you can't transfer to QFF, Woolies ER credit card implies QF travel as its a direct sweep to QFF. I am weighted in DJ's direction by having 100K points stuck in the CBA rewards scheme which I've mentioned in another thread (can only be usefully transferred at 2:1 to Velocity).

Those two cards aside, I'm still pretty much going to have to make the choice QFF/Velocity - unless I can nab an Amex Plat Charge and get into Ascent Premium which seems to allow transfer of points to almost everyone.

I've always used QF for domestic in the past and am more then happy with them. Never flown QF internationally as they have never been even close to price competitive at the times and to the places I've needed to go.

On first balance it appears that the flexibility of Ascent MR via Amex would suit me better simply because there are more possibilities with different partners ... but it also appears to specifically -exclude- QF (cry)

I guess if you were to call me out on this thread I'd have to admit I'm desperately looking for the killer excuse to put my hat into QF's ring, but as a casual flyer this doesn't appear to be a realistic option.

Anyway, no firm conclusion yet. Need to spend the evening pulling scenarios with Velocity - they could be worse

 

[Moopere]

Then if it is QF then Silver gets you a better seat which would involve doing quick short hops as JASAs on the lowest points costs to run up 250 status credits.
You then redeem points on Classic rather than Any Seat.
192k points in J on QF classic to LAX and back could make your points worth about 6 cents each.

I may have missed some subtlety in there. Does your status, Silver Gold, Plat, affect the points cost of classic seats?

 

[Awesom Andy]

I may have missed some subtlety in there. Does your status, Silver Gold, Plat, affect the points cost of classic seats?

Status has no effect on the number of points needed for redemption. However, having status would give you preferential access for classic seats. Do note that, status has an effect on the earn rate when flying on a qualifying fare.

 

[cove]

Everyone pays the same number of points as Awsom has already stated. You do earn extra points in Gold and Platinum but I have no issues being a lowly Silver.
Your thoughts on DJ are shared by many and we are all waiting for their product changes as today they are still a work in progress.
If Virgin get their product relaunched successfully they would be a lot like Ansett was without the baggage.
Also Virgin need to join a real alliance so you can truly go most places in the world any day and any time.
City Flyer on QF is generally a lot better at this point but I am giving you a Perth travelling perspective. If you are on the east coast the Melbourne to Sydney or Brisbane commute is not a big problem.

 

[AnonymousCoward]

Sure, I do understand there is some point to it all, but I guess I'm trying to make a value judgement against time spent. I'm pretty time poor and spending hours and days trying to save three dollars fifty from the price of a toaster at the QFF store just doesn't seem to be value.

Agreed.

For those of us not pushing business spend through awards cards, or not being sent on significant miles reaping adventures by our employers, is there really anything worthwhile in following the QFF program?

There may be. $100K spend/year is probably a business return class to Hong Kong or Japan. 285K points gets you, effectively, a RTW business class flight worth, say, about $6-8k

Ultimately, someone has to pay. If you get the benefit of points accrued through business flying then its a type of fringe benefit to your employment. 1% of the cost of flights bourne by your employer refunded back to you personally to enjoy in ways that perhaps you wouldn't spend your own money on.

We're not all work funded I'm entirely self-funded now, having left my former consulting company employer. I still fly enough to make WP. Since most of my flying is SYD-SIN commute, the status and points become a consideration.

 

[Moopere]

There may be. $100K spend/year is probably a business return class to Hong Kong or Japan. 285K points gets you, effectively, a RTW business class flight worth, say, about $6-8k

Mmm.

Cove mentions above the possibility of J to LAX and back for 192K. This is where my lack of experience is playing tricks with me I think.

192K return to LAX in J
256K RTW in J

yet simple searches I've been doing are bringing up ridiculous results, like the one I started the post with. PER-CDG for 806,000 in J or 278,000 in Y

Are savy AFFers using the QF site to do their QFF scenarios or some other tool? Perhaps the OneWorld site???

 

[browski]

Moo, thanks for putting some effort into your analysis.

I think you need to separate your analysis into these sections:

1. Personal spend vs Company spend
2. Australian FF programs vs US FF Programs.
3. Status vs FF points


1. Personal spend vs Company spend
Loyalty comes at a cost. As you have quickly discovered, there is little-to-no value in entering into a loyalty program when you weigh up the cost/benefit of that loyalty. However if it is not you who must stump up that bucks for flights, then you can essentially pass on the loyalty cost to your company; and as a result enjoy some of the benefits of that loyalty (that you personally did not pay for ). Remember though that Frequent Flying for Work/Business is a unique horror that only those involved in the caper truly realize..........so we have no qualms in taking a small recompense for the pound of flesh that has been gouged from us.

The benefits of no loyalty are almost too numerous to offer, but these 5 are high on the list:

• The flexibility to find cheaper flight options
• The flexibility to find better flight timings and better connections
• The gift to yourself of many, many lost hours. In particular the hours you will regain by not searching for the one pathetic seat which your miserable loyalty airline may deem to provide for you.
• 17 extra years of life you will receive by not dying a little bit every time your FFP announces more enhancements
• Never having to understand or justify a Status Run.

2. Australian FF programs vs US FF Programs.

Athough the LOTFAP can superficially be seen as a dumping ground for the weakest links, they should receive kudos for their determination to create domestic competition.
Their FFPs provide genuine, tangible benefits to their loyal clientele. Our programs in Oz are but a pathetic, diluted incarnation of those in the US. It should be no surprise that many astute members of AFF have decided to throw their lot in with AA, Delta and UA. And before we hear some bleeding heart Qantas apologist pipe up and post that "At least Qantas is solvent", please remember that in the last 20 years nearly all the US Airline bancruptcies have been voluntary - yet none have folded - although conveniently they have been allowed to slice their employees retirement benefits from their obligations during this bankruptcy..........and then just continue trading

3. Status vs FF points
FF points are easy to generate, status points are more difficult. The benefits of status therefore outweigh the occasional use of a FF redemption. So.......unless you can realistically generate enough Status Points in a 12 month period to reach the equivalent of QFF Gold Status, then please re-read point 1.

Happy 2011.

 

[AnonymousCoward]

Cove mentions above the possibility of J to LAX and back for 192K. This is where my lack of experience is playing tricks with me I think.

192K return to LAX in J
256K RTW in J

Check out the oneWorld Classic Award table at the bottom of:
Frequent Flyer - Using Points - Qantas & Partner Classic Awards - Points Tables
282,500 points + 2,500 point assisted booking fee (which I think might be 5,000 points for non-status bookings) gives you a J class flight, up to 35,000 miles, with up to 5 stop-overs (stops greater than 24 hours).

35,000 miles is enough to do a RTW, though technically you don't have to go RTW.

yet simple searches I've been doing are bringing up ridiculous results, like the one I started the post with. PER-CDG for 806,000 in J or 278,000 in Y

QANTAS doesn't fly to CDG - Air France does. As such, QF has no "Classic" (i.e. cheap) award seats on that flight. You are seeing "Any Seat" full price redemptions, and these work out to be about $0.01/point.

To get to CDG cheaper, you are better off looking at flying:
- via LHR, either through SIN/BKK/HKG (and then you can get a connecting flight on BA or QF code-share) to CDG
- via HKG (and then you can get a connecting flight on CX direct to CDG)
- via NRT (and then you can get a connecting flight on JL direct to CDG)

Are savy AFFers using the QF site to do their QFF scenarios or some other tool? Perhaps the OneWorld site???

I usually use ExpertFlyer.

The QF website can help with most oW airlines. However you do need to be flexible in your timings, and Classic seats tend to get taken on populat routes (especially in premium cabins) as soon as they become available (i.e. 365 days out).

Availability during non-peak times is still doable after that - however peak times vary from airline to airline, so if you are looking to book on multiple carriers, then booking early is usually best.

 

[cove]

Moopere move back to Classic points if Any Seat rates are ridiculous.
You book early and one way out 353 days each way.

 

[extracta]

The benefits of no loyalty are almost too numerous to offer, but these 5 are high on the list:

• The flexibility to find cheaper flight options
• The flexibility to find better flight timings and better connections
• The gift to yourself of many, many lost hours. In particular the hours you will regain by not searching for the one pathetic seat which your miserable loyalty airline may deem to provide for you.
• 17 extra years of life you will receive by not dying a little bit every time your FFP announces more enhancements
• Never having to understand or justify a Status Run.

.

I couldn't agree with this more. Loyalty is incredibly expensive. Maybe the airlines should show some loyalty and offer their FF's cheaper flights.

I use my own money to buy tickets and run the figures trying to use QF every time I travel but am always headed off at the pass by the shear cost of using QF in comparison with other airlines.

I have also found that other FF programs although in general better than QFF still leave a big hole in your wallet if your were to be loyal to them.

However the Frequent Flyer program is there to help the airline make money and the QFF program certainly does that.

 

[Alanslegal]

It is becoming clear to me that as work doesn't send me away much and flights are generally going to be under my own steam, I'm going to serve myself better choosing a single local rewards program, QFF or Velocity. Probable I won't fly more than 2-3 domestic and a single international a year so building up sufficient worthwhile status and/or points in more than one program is a bit remote.

I'm starting to wonder though, for me, putting maybe $100K through a couple of cards a year + 4 flights of which only 1 is likely to be o/s, the QFF program doesn't appear to offer much that justifies even bothering with the scheme.

Let's try to keep this simple. My simple explaination of a frequent flyer program revolves around two things; one is 'status' levels based on frequent flying, and the second one is about the 'points' earning towards that program.

Firstly, the handful number of flights you take per year is not going to give you any decent status with any airline frequent flyer program, unless your overseas trip is a round the world type / multi-continent type fare in premium cabins. Similarly with points earning, it is unlikely you will earn any decent amount of points through flying. So I wouldn't focus my energy of earning status or points via flying, and focus on other ways.

Now this leads me to this; how can we earn loads of points (at no cost or relatively low cost) and the redeem them to make the most of those points?

If you are able to put through $100K worth of annual spending through a points earning credit card (without paying interest, surcharges) then you will be on your way to accumulating a decent number of points for no additional cost than otherwise if you had paid cash

Some cards earn 1.5 points per $1, so that means 150,000 points can be earnt p.a if you spend $100K. 140,000 points is enough for a like-round the world type fare with Qantas. Double those points, and its flying in business class.

Some cards have other airline partners, for eg. some Amex cards have 1:1 transfers to Singapore Airlines Kris Flyer program. So that 150,000 points earnt, potentially could be a PER-CDG return flying business class which cost 130K points plus taxes.

I give flyer points, well QFs ones anyway, a nominal value of 1cent per point. And I try to aim to redeem my points at a cost of around 2.5 cent per point, and generally the easiest way is to redeem them for J/F flights.

 

[Moopere]

Hello Browski,

Thanks for your considered response. You have pretty much captured what I was trying to say, but did so a lot more clearly.

1. Personal spend vs Company spend
However if it is not you who must stump up that bucks for flights, then you can essentially pass on the loyalty cost to your company; and as a result enjoy some of the benefits of that loyalty (that you personally did not pay for ).

Yes, this is the 'fringe benefit' I speak of.

Remember though that Frequent Flying for Work/Business is a unique horror that only those involved in the caper truly realize..........so we have no qualms in taking a small recompense for the pound of flesh that has been gouged from us.

Indeed. I have flown a lot more in previous years, quite some years ago in fact now that I think about it. Was always too busy to sit and think about the whole FF thing at that time though. Knowing what I know now I let a lot of opportunity pass me by.

2. Australian FF programs vs US FF Programs.

It should be no surprise that many astute members of AFF have decided to throw their lot in with AA, Delta and UA.

Ahh. Now, this is interesting. I've read some hints about this throughout the forums but don't really understand how one can gain or use AA (for instance) FF points domestically. Is the idea of using US programs only really relevant if you travel predominantly o/s?

3. Status vs FF points
FF points are easy to generate, status points are more difficult. The benefits of status therefore outweigh the occasional use of a FF redemption. So.......unless you can realistically generate enough Status Points in a 12 month period to reach the equivalent of QFF Gold Status, then please re-read point 1.

And this is the clincher. Seems relatively easy to generate some FF points with careful choice of credit card and small redirections of spend to suit. But in my case its going to be pretty much self funded (well...self + BAS). As I spoke of above, seems futile to try and do much thats useful across several programs so I am going to need to decide and choose, QFF, Velocity, MR Ascent, etc. One of these programs needs to be the one where I plonk most of my effort.

As for the niceties of Gold status or above. Seems unlikely I will ever fly enough for this to be a reality, therefore, need to think about the possibility of single entry versus annual lounge access, which again is mostly of benefit when you have decided which partnership/program you are going to run with. Not much value in me joining -both- Qantas Club _and_ The Lounge for example.

Happy 2011.

Thanks! To you also. Its going to be a good one, I can tell

 

[Moopere]

140,000 points is enough for a like-round the world type fare with Qantas. Double those points, and its flying in business class.

Mmm. I need to spend a lot more time soaking up the QF/QFF website I think. There have been several reports by kindly AFFers telling me things like this. I seem to only be able to bring up 80K PER-MEL in J. Anything overseas is 100's thousands of points and in Y.

Some cards have other airline partners, for eg. some Amex cards have 1:1 transfers to Singapore Airlines Kris Flyer program. So that 150,000 points earnt, potentially could be a PER-CDG return flying business class which cost 130K points plus taxes.

Examples like above are what have sent me down this road of discovery. PER-CDG in J with SQ would be lovely! At even a couple of 100 thousand points I'd view that as good value.

You are not the first to mention Krisflyer as being good on redemptions either. Another tick in the box for Amex MR Ascent which then naturally seems to lean towards DJ for domestic (as Ascent transfers to Velocity too).

Given that Amex is not universally accepted domestically, I suspect I'm going to arrive at a compromise solution which will be Amex earning MR and MC/VISA earning QFF. I guess the QFF points can help to hop me to SIN where I can then take one of the other major airlines to my final destination via Ascent MR points.

 

[TonyHancock]

Given that Amex is not universally accepted domestically, I suspect I'm going to arrive at a compromise solution which will be Amex earning MR and MC/VISA earning QFF. I guess the QFF points can help to hop me to SIN where I can then take one of the other major airlines to my final destination via Ascent MR points.

I use Amex as my primary card and have recently switched to the Woolworths Qantas Mastercard. The latter gives 1 point per dollar spent and gave me 16,000 points for signing up. At $89 per year I find it relatively inexpensive. (I also shop at Woolworths/Safeway to maximise my points - Everyday Rewards.

 

[browski]

Citibank have a special credit card called the CitiBusiness GoldCard.

This is the only card on the market that allows you the discretion of transferring the points to either QFF, KrsiFlyer or Velocity - ie there is no "direct sweep".