CR schedule change with JL - now not meeting MCT - options?

[ScubaMel]

I have a classic reward CDG-HND NRT-MEL for the 22nd July. CDG-HND in F and NRT-MEL in J.

I have just received notification from qantas that the CDG-HND schedule has changed and there is only an hour between flights now which is obviously impossible.

The email says ‘if you have booked directly with us, we’ll be in touch with your new connecting flight details’ I’m just wondering if I should be proactive and call (however i’m only bronze so won’t get the HBA call centre) or wait for them to contact me and see what they offer. What are my options in terms of flights? Looks like there is classic reward availability for QF HND-SYD-MEL in J on the day i need it. I don’t suppose they will put me on the QF CDG-PER-MEL flight (no classic reward available but full reward price seats are available) instead?

 

[MELso]

Are they on the same PNR? If so, QF and JL will have to sort something out as the connection's protected, although I'd suggest working out what you'd prefer.

If you don't get any joy in the next few days, try emailing [email protected]

 

[ScubaMel]

Are they on the same PNR? If so, QF and JL will have to sort something out as the connection's protected, although I'd suggest working out what you'd prefer.

Yes, on the one PNR

 

[evanb]

Since the trip starts in the EU, the itinerary is protected by EU 261. It's not always immediately obvious non-EU airlines that this is the case and may always be useful to remind them.

EU 261 gives you some protections, but the challenge is that the obligations on the operating carriers, not the ticketing carriers. Reward tickets get complicated since the ticketing carrier won't want to rebook you in non-reward capacity even though you're actually eligible for this under EU 261. Airlines typically get into squabbles. QF will say this JL's problem, while JL will say it's QF to fix (they are the ticketing carrier). Technically, it's JL's problem since they have the obligation under EU 261, but they also have limited ability to affect anything other than their own flight since it is not their ticket. The practical challenge is that EU 261 gives you limited ability to enforce it in advance. You could do nothing and just pitch up on the day and they would have to reaccomodate you, but that comes with risks.

If they've notified you more than two weeks in advance, they don't owe compensation, but they must offer you your choice of:

1. Re-routing to the same destination at the earliest opportunity (under comparable conditions);
2. Later rerouting, at the passenger's convenience, to the same destination under comparable conditions (subject to seat availability); or
3. A refund of the ticket as well as a return flight to the point of first departure, when relevant.

So basically, if you stand your ground, they must find you an alternative. If they say there is no alternate reward capacity available then you should note EU 261 and stand your ground.

 

[kangarooflyer88]

You need to take a step back and ask yourself what outcome you want here. Clearly a schedule change has occurred and the itinerary you originally booked isn't valid. Is there a specific routing that you would now prefer? The reason I ask is that often when these changes occur the airlines have latitude in rebooking you on alternate routings, some of which may be better than what you had originally booked. For instance, you could book something like CDG > HND > SYD > MEL. Whilst this change results in having to connect at an additional airport it removes the need to transfer between HND and NRT. If you have checked bags it can be fun, since you'll need to clear immigration, collect bags, take the Narita Express over to Narita, re-check bags and clear security. Additionally such an itinerary should be doable for Qantas since HND > SYD > MEL are all operated by them and it is trivial for them to pop open a seat for you (they do this all the time during schedule changes). Indeed, the notion of classic award availability becomes irrelevant when the airline changes the flight on you making the itinerary untenable. After all, they were the ones who instituted the change, so they are on the hook for finding flights that work.

So basically, if you stand your ground, they must find you an alternative. If they say there is no alternate reward capacity available then you should note EU 261 and stand your ground.

Presumably if they don't find an alternative and OP takes the flights as booked, they will mis-connect? In that instance, EU261 comes into force since the operating airline that caused the delay would be responsible for rebooking at your connection point, providing meals, accommodation (if necessary) and 600 Euros compensation (if you arrive at your final destination more than 4 hours late).

In any event, I would press the airlines to find an alternative for you. It is their responsibility since they decided to make that change. You should not have to pay a cent more for this, and no a refund won't help since it won't make you whole (as it doesn't replace the flights you have booked). Remember to that there are two sets of legislation that come into play: EU261 which governs trips originating in Europe and the Montreal Convention which governs most international trips (supposing the nation of the originating flight and the nation of the final destination are both signatories to the convention, again most are). The latter is important since it allows you to collect reimbursement caused by things like delays. And these laws are fairly iron clad too!

-RooFlyer88

 

[ScubaMel]

Ok, it looks like they can rebook me CDG-HND-SYD-MEL with HND-SYD-MEL on QF (orginal itinerary was all JL). I'm being asked to pay an extra 120Euro in taxes - is there any way around this?

 

[cjd600]

Ok, it looks like they can rebook me CDG-HND-SYD-MEL with HND-SYD-MEL on QF (orginal itinerary was all JL). I'm being asked to pay an extra 120Euro in taxes - is there any way around this?

I'd be suggesting I'm not paying extra due to the involuntary change....

 

[kangarooflyer88]

Ok, it looks like they can rebook me CDG-HND-SYD-MEL with HND-SYD-MEL on QF (orginal itinerary was all JL). I'm being asked to pay an extra 120Euro in taxes - is there any way around this?

Yes there is. Tell them that the airline will pay for it since they were the ones who created the mess to begin with. The principle here is really simple folks, you pay for a flight to take you from Paris to Melbourne. You already paid the taxes and fees, forked over the points. Now it is up to the airline to ensure you get to your final destination. If they make a change on you and that requires transiting through other airports and there being additional fees, then that's on them to pay for. You don't owe them a penny!

And remember too, when an airline cancels a flight or does a schedule change like this, you have every right to select a suitable rebooking option for free to fix the mess they put you in, in the first place. The airlines just have to eat the cost here. And look, if they kept you on the originally booking they would end up paying you far more in EU261 compensation, meals, hotels, etc, plus the expense of having to buy a J ticket at the last minute from a partner. It's simply not worth it for them to save a couple of bucks in taxes and fees to risk all of that!

Also it's airlines who always pay taxes and fees, not the passengers and in many circumstances the airlines do not collect those taxes and fees from customers. Involuntary changes like this are one of them. Upgrades to a higher cabin is another (i.e. moving from economy to business class on a flight leaving LHR using points). Airlines also gobble up things like the UK air passenger duty when it comes to deep discount economy fares. They do this by reducing the base fare and fuel surcharge fees by an amount similar to the air passenger duty. This is why I maintain the UK's air passenger duty is arguably one of the best things to happen in aviation in Europe since EU261.

 

[Himeno]

How long was the connection before the change? I thought that 1 hour would be enough time to connect, but then noticed that you had to change airports.

Since you had no control over this change, any costs related to the change is the responsibility of the airline.

 

[SYD]

Ok, it looks like they can rebook me CDG-HND-SYD-MEL with HND-SYD-MEL on QF (orginal itinerary was all JL). I'm being asked to pay an extra 120Euro in taxes - is there any way around this?

Does the QANTAS website give the option to change flights? If so, what happened when you click through? Possibly not much being CR flights.

Putting aside the current request to cough up 120€, the actual alternate flight combo is quite good. QF were probably able to release an extra seat on their own metal to accommodate you. Had it not been a QF sector, I suspect the alternative wouldn’t be quite so good.

 

[ScubaMel]

How long was the connection before the change? I thought that 1 hour would be enough time to connect, but then noticed that you had to change airports.

Since you had no control over this change, any costs related to the change is the responsibility of the airline.

It was just under 4.5hours

Does the QANTAS website give the option to change flights? If so, what happened when you click through? Possibly not much being CR flights.

Putting aside the current request to cough up 120€, the actual alternate flight combo is quite good. QF were probably able to release an extra seat on their own metal to accommodate you. Had it not been a QF sector, I suspect the alternative wouldn’t be quite so good.

No option in manage my booking on the qantas website.

I think I got lucky as there was a CR award available from HND - SYD on the date I needed with QF. When i rang I was initially told that there wasn't anything available (I suspect she was only looking at JL flights) and then I mentioned that there was the QF flight available from HND.

 

[kangarooflyer88]

I think I got lucky as there was a CR award available from HND - SYD on the date I needed with QF. When i rang I was initially told that there wasn't anything available (I suspect she was only looking at JL flights) and then I mentioned that there was the QF flight available from HND.

There is almost always revenue business class fares available on Qantas on most days so I find that hard to believe. Again, during a schedule change like that, Qantas can use any available seat in the class of service you were originally booked in (i.e. business). This nonsense that there needs to be classic award availability is wrong. It is wrong legally. It is wrong morally. It is wrong by Qantas' own spirit of flying which is that you were given a bundle of rights and not tied to a specific flight.

It would be one thing if you called up Qantas to change the date you want to fly, but simply calling in to clear up a mess they caused is always free of charge and you can always count on being able to choose any Qantas flight which has availability in the cabin you were originally booked in.

 

[ScubaMel]

Talk about getting the run about.

Call 2 to Qantas - says if i get qantas to change the flight to the QF HND-SYD-MEL i have to pay the additional taxes, but if JL change it I won’t have to. Advised to call JL. I asked about the JL flight from HND to SYD but qantas can’t (won’t) book me on it because there’s no reward availability and advised me to contact JL

Call 3: contacted JL - said they can’t do anything, qantas is the ticketing airline and to contact qantas and advise qantas to contact JL on their internal line

Call 4: advising that because i need to add a syd-mel segment (on either QF or JL) it changes it from an involuntary change to a voluntary change and therefore taxes and charges need to recalculated and i have to pay them. There is no flight from NRT-MEL the following day so no point staying in tokoyo to get that flight. I reiterated that it was an involuntary change and that i should not be financially penalised because of an airline change out of my control. Continued to state that it was a now a voluntary change and that by adding another segment with a different airline taxes and charges need to be recalculated and charged. Also mentioned something about the fact that the flight isn’t until next year although i’m not sure about the relevance of this. I told her i could have waited and rocked up at the airport and then they would be subject to EU-261 which she acknowledged but it didn’t change anything. She’s put through a request to JL for their HND-SYD flight, i’m not sure what is happening with getting me to MEL at the moment.

Any further advice other than just sucking it up?

 

[kangarooflyer88]

Call 2 to Qantas - says if i get qantas to change the flight to the QF HND-SYD-MEL i have to pay the additional taxes, but if JL change it I won’t have to. Advised to call JL. I asked about the JL flight from HND to SYD but qantas can’t (won’t) book me on it because there’s no reward availability and advised me to contact JL

The itinerary has been changed by the airline. The airline needs to fix the change, which in this case would be Japan Airlines as they were the operating airline instituting the change in the first place. Qantas does have the power to book you on other airlines flights including those operated by non-OneWorld partners, they do it all the time. Don't believe me? Try searching on the Qantas website for a flight to Toronto (YYZ) or Paris (CDG) using points or cash - you'll see tons of options both cash and via points operated by themselves and others like Air Canada or Air France. Whether Qantas wants to open their wallet to fix the broken itinerary is up for debate. The law is clear though that when you have a flight booked like this and the airlines make a change, they need to do what it takes to make that itinerary valid in the event of a schedule change. If that means putting you on a competitor's flight so be it. And believe me Qantas does this all the time. You can read up on this very forum about stories of Qantas pushing passengers onto a Delta Airlines flight when they missed their connecting flight to SYD at LAX.

Call 3: contacted JL - said they can’t do anything, qantas is the ticketing airline and to contact qantas and advise qantas to contact JL on their internal line

JAL is correct that they don't hold the ticket, your travel agent, namely Qantas Airways is the one who manages that file. Did you call back Qantas and get them to contact JAL on their internal line? If so what did they say? If they didn't contact JAL did you ask them to contact the OneWorld rebooking desk to get this mess sorted? Qantas has access to this service and I am told it can do wonders for messes like this!

Call 4: advising that because i need to add a syd-mel segment (on either QF or JL) it changes it from an involuntary change to a voluntary change and therefore taxes and charges need to recalculated and i have to pay them.

Wrong! You aren't changing anything. The ticket remains CDG to MEL. The fact that the routing is altered does not make it a voluntary change. Indeed during schedule changes like this it is quite common to change the routing to construct a routing that is actually legal.

There is no flight from NRT-MEL the following day so no point staying in tokoyo to get that flight. I reiterated that it was an involuntary change and that i should not be financially penalised because of an airline change out of my control. Continued to state that it was a now a voluntary change and that by adding another segment with a different airline taxes and charges need to be recalculated and charged.

Again you need to ask them whether this changed the origin or destination of the itinerary. If the answer is no, they are wrong.

Also mentioned something about the fact that the flight isn’t until next year although i’m not sure about the relevance of this. I told her i could have waited and rocked up at the airport and then they would be subject to EU-261 which she acknowledged but it didn’t change anything. She’s put through a request to JL for their HND-SYD flight, i’m not sure what is happening with getting me to MEL at the moment.

Hopefully they get all of this sorted. What I will say is don't accept the itinerary if it's just CDG > HND > SYD. Only accept the itinerary if it starts in CDG and ends in MEL. That's what you paid for, that's what you are entitled to. To reiterate, you don't owe Qantas a dime for any of this. If there are additional taxes and fees they'll gobble it up since their flight was the one that got changed.

Any further advice other than just sucking it up?

No need to suck it up. Keep calling it in until you get the right representative. Additionally, you may want to email the Qantas classic award escalation email address since this seems to be a mess

Qantas Fixes Ongoing Reward Flight Ticketing Failures

Qantas is taking concrete steps to ensure Classic Flight Reward tickets are issued and re-issued correctly in the future.

www.australianfrequentflyer.com.au

 

[evanb]

Talk about getting the run about.

Call 2 to Qantas - says if i get qantas to change the flight to the QF HND-SYD-MEL i have to pay the additional taxes, but if JL change it I won’t have to. Advised to call JL. I asked about the JL flight from HND to SYD but qantas can’t (won’t) book me on it because there’s no reward availability and advised me to contact JL

Call 3: contacted JL - said they can’t do anything, qantas is the ticketing airline and to contact qantas and advise qantas to contact JL on their internal line

Call 4: advising that because i need to add a syd-mel segment (on either QF or JL) it changes it from an involuntary change to a voluntary change and therefore taxes and charges need to recalculated and i have to pay them. There is no flight from NRT-MEL the following day so no point staying in tokoyo to get that flight. I reiterated that it was an involuntary change and that i should not be financially penalised because of an airline change out of my control. Continued to state that it was a now a voluntary change and that by adding another segment with a different airline taxes and charges need to be recalculated and charged. Also mentioned something about the fact that the flight isn’t until next year although i’m not sure about the relevance of this. I told her i could have waited and rocked up at the airport and then they would be subject to EU-261 which she acknowledged but it didn’t change anything. She’s put through a request to JL for their HND-SYD flight, i’m not sure what is happening with getting me to MEL at the moment.

Any further advice other than just sucking it up?

This is exactly as I feared where the operating carrier (JL) is limited by ticketing carrier (QF). JL can only make a change on the first leg, and QF don't have access to JL's total inventory. It's a massive weakness in the chokepoint in legacy GDS systems for reward flights. If this were a revenue ticket with the JL on QF code or vice versa, the ticketing carrier would have more to play with.

By offering you the HND-SYD-MEL flight, QF think they are being nice (and they really are since this is JL's problem), but the agent can't authorise eating the revenue, maybe escalating to a higher level might. JL also think they are being nice, but they literally cannot change the ticket without QF giving it to them. Alternatively, QF need to get in touch with JL and work it out and get them to eat the cost.

 

[evanb]

Presumably if they don't find an alternative and OP takes the flights as booked, they will mis-connect? In that instance, EU261 comes into force since the operating airline that caused the delay would be responsible for rebooking at your connection point, providing meals, accommodation (if necessary) and 600 Euros compensation (if you arrive at your final destination more than 4 hours late).

Somewhat of a grey area. The airline have communicated the schedule change with the pax as required. However, the communication element has mostly been interpreted to affect the compensation. They probably wouldn't have to pay since they notified pax >14 days in advance.

However, if you ignore and make no schedule change and arrive at the airport the system won't allow the pax to check in and boarding pass to be issued if the connection is < MCT. While not on the line for compensation, they are still on the line for rerouting at this this point.

The caveat is that they have no unilaterally cancelled the ticket at this time. But that is a dangerous game - they will not do this without issuing an alternative itinerary since they are legally obligated. They would probably be in far more trouble if they did this. What they often do is simply rebook whatever the GDS suggests, but again this becomes a problem since it's on QF stock and a JL disruption. QF know that JL is on the line, but JL also can't get into the ticket!

But to another point you made elsewhere which I also made and are critically important: anywhere else in the world the carriers would only be required to find you space in an award fare. In the EU that is meaningless - they must use a revenue fare basis if needed and work it out for themselves! EU 261 makes no distinction - they must get you there at your convenience and at no additional cost to you!

 

[kangarooflyer88]

This is exactly as I feared where the operating carrier (JL) is limited by ticketing carrier (QF). JL can only make a change on the first leg, and QF don't have access to JL's total inventory. It's a massive weakness in the chokepoint in legacy GDS systems for reward flights. If this were a revenue ticket with the JL on QF code or vice versa, the ticketing carrier would have more to play with.

Yes schedule changes are a weakness of OneWorld, particular for award flights since they don't have the IT systems found on other alliances (i.e. StarNet on Star Alliance) that allow for seamless rebooking onto other partners without having to worry about silly things like classic award availability.

By offering you the HND-SYD-MEL flight, QF think they are being nice (and they really are since this is JL's problem), but the agent can't authorise eating the revenue, maybe escalating to a higher level might. JL also think they are being nice, but they literally cannot change the ticket without QF giving it to them. Alternatively, QF need to get in touch with JL and work it out and get them to eat the cost.

QF is not being nice by fixing the mistake on the ticket. This is what they are legally required to do under the EU261 and Montreal Convention. They were the ones who issued the ticket and now the ticket became invalid because one of their partners messed around with schedules. Ultimately it is the travel agency, Qantas Airways, that must fix the problem with that (now) invalid itinerary.

In terms of eating the cost, yes Qantas can and regularly does eat the costs. I can give you two examples which come to mind. In one instance Qantas made a 20 minute schedule change to a ADL > SYD flight I had booked. I called up QF, told them the change didn't work and insisted they rebooking on a flight connecting through CBR instead which departed at roughly the same time (the reason being so that I could earn 10 additional status credits and unlock the loyalty bonus for the year rather than abandoning it when my program year ended). There is no question this change cost Qantas money as they would now need to pay the taxes and fees of CBR which I am now connecting through. And yet not a single penny was collected by me. Another example that comes to mind is when I had SYD > LDH booked in August 2021 only for QF to cancel the flight due to you know what. I called up QF, and was able to select another flight departing roughly a year later, again at no extra cost.

-RooFlyer88

 

[evanb]

Yes schedule changes are a weakness of OneWorld, particular for award flights since they don't have the IT systems found on other alliances (i.e. StarNet on Star Alliance) that allow for seamless rebooking onto other partners without having to worry about silly things like classic award availability.

Nothing to do wth OneWorld. I'm not sure anyone is using the alliance specific tools anymore given how GDS architecture has evolved. All the major GDS systems that the legacy carriers use are broadly interoperable to the level where alliance specific tools are moot, especially since the major legacy carriers have broadly abandoned alliances as a core strategy in favor of JVs. And even more so with the way GDS is going with IATA NDC. I don't even think StarNet even exists anymore (literally have not heard of it for years and I work on revenue management projects with several *A carriers in recent years).

This has nothing to do with OneWorld and everything to do with is being on QF stock. JL are limited in their ability to change flights on QF stock until the ticket comes under their control (i.e., once they could check in a pax).

 

[evanb]

QF is not being nice by fixing the mistake on the ticket. This is what they are legally required to do under the EU261 and Montreal Convention. They were the ones who issued the ticket and now the ticket became invalid because one of their partners messed around with schedules. Ultimately it is the travel agency, Qantas Airways, that must fix the problem with that (now) invalid itinerary.

Under EU 261, the ticketing carrier bares no responsibility or liability whatsoever. The responsibility or liability falls squarely on the operating carrier who makes the first infraction. The text of the law is very explicit to use the words "operating air carrier".

The only variation is when the ticket is issued by a tour operator on a charter flights.

 

[ScubaMel]

JAL is correct that they don't hold the ticket, your travel agent, namely Qantas Airways is the one who manages that file. Did you call back Qantas and get them to contact JAL on their internal line? If so what did they say? If they didn't contact JAL did you ask them to contact the OneWorld rebooking desk to get this mess sorted? Qantas has access to this service and I am told it can do wonders for messes like this!

No need to suck it up. Keep calling it in until you get the right representative. Additionally, you may want to email the Qantas classic award escalation email address since this seems to be a mess

Qantas Fixes Ongoing Reward Flight Ticketing Failures

Qantas is taking concrete steps to ensure Classic Flight Reward tickets are issued and re-issued correctly in the future.

www.australianfrequentflyer.com.au

The agent put me on hold but I don’t think she contacted JAL on the internal line. She said she has put a request through to them however.

If i get no result from that i will suggest the one world rebooking desk and/or use the escalation email address.

Good point also about persisting that it isn’t a voluntary change if the routing has to change. I will bring that up if required. Its not like i have asked to go adelaide instead now.

Ironically, i contacted qantas maybe 6 weeks ago to see if i could change my reward ticket onto the qantas flight from haneda as classic reward availability had come up. However they wouldn’t let me as there was ‘no availability’ on the cdg-hnd leg even though i was keeping that. I would have happily paid the additional charges then and they wouldn’t be in this mess now (although obviously this couldn’t have been predicted).