Damaged bicycle on QF flight from LHR - advice (possibly legal) needed

[FlyingScotsman]

Hi everyone,

Fresh off QF10 from LHR > MEL on Monday, I waited at the oversized area for my bike. 20mins passed - not unusual, as it has taken up to 35 minutes in the past - before I was distracted by a fellow traveller and spotted it on the regular conveyor belt in my peripheral vision.

The bag was on it's side (in it's professional bike-specific soft case) and looked a bit "roughed up". As I'd just completed a 30hr journey, and the airport was already teeming with passengers at 06:30, I strode off to clear customs and beat the rush.

An hour later, I got home and started unpacking. The light caught my bike (a high-end BMC, exactly the same model as Cadel's) to reveal several cracks on one of the main carbon tubes.

Immediately, I called Qantas Baggage Services (hereafter referred to as QBS) to initiate a claim. The immediate tone of the call didn't inspire confidence. However, once my FF# was taken (they realised I was QFF Platinum) and it was clear I'd contacted them as soon as I could, the Qantas employee began to facilitate a claim.

After sending scans of my boarding passes, baggage receipt, etc, I received an email from QBS asking me to get a quote for repair.

Though this seems a step in the right direction, the thought of repairing a $5,500 carbon frame fills me with dread. Not only is it technically challenging, I would morally be compelled to disclose this repair to any potential buyer - hence chopping off hundreds, if not thousands, from the potential price if I were to sell it in future. We cyclists always suffer from "upgrade-itis"...

So, I expressed this point to QBS only to be informed of the 'conditions of carriage', the 'Montreal Convention 1999' and the limited coverage via Special Drawing Rights to the equivalent of roughly $1,700. $1,700 for a $5,500 frame (not including the price of the rest of the bike) is wholly unsatisfactory from my POV.

According to the Qantas Conditions of Carriage 16.4b 'International Carriage' 5. Our [Qantas'] liability for...damage to...Baggage is limited by the applicable Convention...we will only be liable for Cabin Baggage if we were at fault'.
Then, I referred to the abovementioned Convention:
According to Article 22.5 of the Montreal 1999 Convention "The foregoing provisions of paragraphs 1 and 2 of this Article [ie limited liability by way of SDR's] shall not apply if it is proved that the damage resulted from an act or omission of the carrier, its servants or agents, done with intent to cause damage or recklessly and with knowledge that damage would probably result; provided that, in the case of such act or omission of a servant or agent, it is also proved that such servant or agent was acting within the scope of its employment.

The bag was tagged with "fragile" tags and also had "bicycle", "do not stack", "handle with care" printed on both sides. Both my bike and bike bag were in excellent condition when checked-in.


Given the bike ended up on the regular conveyer belt, side-loaded, and knowingly at risk of being damaged by other passenger's regular luggage - some hard cases in excess of 23kg - coming off the conveyor, it's not without careful consideration I think Article 22.5 of the Convention can reasonably apply, insofar as Qantas or it's agents had "knowledge that damage would probably result" from putting the bicycle on the regular conveyor belt, and not channeling it through oversized/special baggage - as would normally be the procedure.

Can anyone please give me their experienced opinion?
Anyone had a similar event?
Recommend a good lawyer? (I seriously hope it doesn't come to that)

Thanks in advance for any help/input.

 

[opusman]

I feel bad for you but I would have thought you should have taken out insurance on such a valuable bike before consigning it to the baggage hold.

I doubt you will be able to extract more from Qantas than the amount they are legally liable for.

 

[significance]

If you have travel insurance, make a claim with your insurer and let them sort it out with Qantas. If you didn't go out of your way to get travel insurance, perhaps you have some coverage through your credit card?

 

[FlyingScotsman]

I feel bad for you but I would have thought you should have taken out insurance on such a valuable bike before consigning it to the baggage hold.

I doubt you will be able to extract more from Qantas than the amount they are legally liable for.

Hi opusman,

Thanks for your commiserations. This incident has raised my awareness of bicycle-specific insurance - there are companies (Velosure, Cycle Cover) offering this, and I am looking seriously at their services.

Your last sentence points to my main question - is Qantas' liability capped according to their CoC, or does 22.5 of the Montreal Convention 1999 apply - in which case a limit is not valid.

Cheers, FS.

 

[FlyingScotsman]

If you have travel insurance, make a claim with your insurer and let them sort it out with Qantas. If you didn't go out of your way to get travel insurance, perhaps you have some coverage through your credit card?

Thanks significance, appreciate your input.

 

[serfty]

According to the Qantas Conditions of Carriage 16.4b 'International Carriage' 5. Our [Qantas'] liability for...damage to...Baggage is limited by the applicable Convention...we will only be liable for Cabin Baggage if we were at fault'.
Then, I referred to the abovementioned Convention:
According to Article 22.5 of the Montreal 1999 Convention "The foregoing provisions of paragraphs 1 and 2 of this Article [ie limited liability by way of SDR's] shall not apply if it is proved that the damage resulted from an act or omission of the carrier, its servants or agents, done with intent to cause damage or recklessly and with knowledge that damage would probably result; provided that, in the case of such act or omission of a servant or agent, it is also proved that such servant or agent was acting within the scope of its employment.

That's gunna be tough to prove - really tough. I wish you luck.

"Montreal" is well known and does provide significantly more compensation than Warsaw. (Internally, Qantas were not very happy about Australia becoming a signatory to "Montreal".)

Under "Warsaw", compensation was limited to XDR17 per Kilo (~$26/Kg), a light weight bike would in all likelyhood have been calculated at a lot lower limit for statutory damages.

With "Montreal", the limit of compensation is XDR1000, which at current Forex exchange rates is ~AUD1505, so $1700 is a rather interesting figure.

[MONTREAL] CONVENTION FOR THE UNIFICATION OF CERTAIN RULES FOR INTERNATIONAL CARRIAGE BY AIR

Article 22. Limits of Liability in Relation to Delay, Baggage and Cargo

1. In the case of damage caused by delay as specified in Article 19 in the carriage of
persons, the liability of the carrier for each passenger is limited to 4 150 Special Drawing
Rights.

2. In the carriage of baggage, the liability of the carrier in the case of destruction, loss,
damage or delay is limited to 1 000 Special Drawing Rights for each passenger unless the
passenger has made, at the time when the checked baggage was handed over to the carrier,
a special declaration of interest in delivery at destination and has paid a supplementary sum
if the case so requires. In that case the carrier will be liable to pay a sum not exceeding the
declared sum, unless it it proves that the sum is greater than the passenger's actual interest in
delivery at destination.

What was the quote for repairs to the Frame? Also, don't forget you are able to claim any damage to the "roughed up" professional bike-specific soft case. (Might be moot, but I'd claim anyway.)

 

[FlyingScotsman]

That's gunna be tough to prove - really tough. I wish you luck.

"Montreal" is well known and does provide significantly more compensation than Warsaw. (Internally, Qantas were not very happy about Australia becoming a signatory to "Montreal".)

Under "Warsaw", compensation was limited to XDR17 per Kilo (~$26/Kg), a light weight bike would in all likelyhood have been calculated at a lot lower limit for statutory damages.

With "Montreal", the limit of compensation is XDR1000, which at current Forex exchange rates is ~AUD1505, so $1700 is a rather interesting figure.

(link removed, as I don't have post count >10)


What was the quote for repairs to the Frame? Also, don't forget you are able to claim any damage to the "roughed up" professional bike-specific soft case. (Might be moot, but I'd claim anyway.)

Thanks alot Serfty,

Article 22. Limits of Liability in Relation to Delay, Baggage and Cargo provisions 1 and 2 do not apply if provision 5 (noted in original post) can be proven.

As you note, that's going to be tough to prove. I was pretty shocked to see my bike on the regular conveyor belt, especially given the system in Melbourne "drops" items onto the carousel. I think that's negligent, but I'll get further advice.

Still awaiting a quote for the frame, and thanks for the reminder about the bag. I guess I've been prioritising the bike, given the bag is about 1/15th the value of the frame!

Cheers, FS.

 

[UP4014]

Personally I doubt you'll get a new bike frame. You'll get a contribution and I think unless you are a millionaire trying to make a point you'll be wasting your money on any legal action, and if you were a millionaire you probably wouldn't be bothered with the cost of a bike frame.

The airline will pay something and then you claim the rest on from your travel insurer.

Matt

 

[iqis60]

Hi FlyingScotsman and a warm welcome to a fellow rider and flyer! My reply deviates slightly from the original content of your post, but hopefully you find it helpful.

Sorry to hear about your bike copping damage in transit, it's not fun to have your pride and joy damaged. Unfortunately, I have to say that I'm not surprised to hear your story. I've done an around the world trip with my bike in a soft bag and a number of domestic trips in the same manner and I think my bike pops out on the normal conveyor belt about a third of the time. It seems the greater the effort you make to keep the weight and size down of your bike bag, the more likely it is to end up being roughed up on transit.

It's because of this experience that I never travel with one of my carbon bikes in a soft bag. When I have travelled with a carbon fibre bike, I've packed it in a bike box, as they tend to get treated with a bit more respect. I know it doesn't help you in this case, but you may want to think about an alloy travelling bike in future, or getting a full hard case for your bike.
When travelling, it helps if you assume the bag is going to cop a beating, so having a bike you don't care that much about in the bag is a good starting point. To protect the bike a little, I take off the dérailleur and pedals, use spacers in the frame to reduce impacts and pack the inside of the bag with helmet, shoes and rear rack placed strategically to take hits before the frame does. I also take a few spares in the bag to ensure I can ride at the other end, like a spare rear drop out and a multi tool to do some repairs. But I'll say it again, taking a bike you don't care about is the best way to reduce stress when travelling!

You may want to check the frame replacement warranty with your manufacturer (BMC I assume!) as some manufacturers offer a full crash replacement warranty and others offer a reduced cost crash replacement program that means you can get a replacement at something like half the normal price. This may not be around the $1700 amount, but if you can front up with a replacement quote closer to that ballpark, it might be a good start.

Did you book your flights with a credit card that offers some travel insurance? You may be able to get something out of that.

I hope this experience doesn't discourage you from flying with your bike again and I hope you get a good resolution!

 

[harvyk]

Hi FlyingScotsman,

Ignoring QF for a minute, what is your actual travel insurance situation?
Do you have travel insurance full stop?
Is it included with your credit card?
Or are you completely without travel insurance and thus forced to make the claim with QF?

 

[FlyingScotsman]

Hi FlyingScotsman and a warm welcome to a fellow rider and flyer! My reply deviates slightly from the original content of your post, but hopefully you find it helpful.

Sorry to hear about your bike copping damage in transit, it's not fun to have your pride and joy damaged. Unfortunately, I have to say that I'm not surprised to hear your story. I've done an around the world trip with my bike in a soft bag and a number of domestic trips in the same manner and I think my bike pops out on the normal conveyor belt about a third of the time. It seems the greater the effort you make to keep the weight and size down of your bike bag, the more likely it is to end up being roughed up on transit.

It's because of this experience that I never travel with one of my carbon bikes in a soft bag. When I have travelled with a carbon fibre bike, I've packed it in a bike box, as they tend to get treated with a bit more respect. I know it doesn't help you in this case, but you may want to think about an alloy travelling bike in future, or getting a full hard case for your bike.
When travelling, it helps if you assume the bag is going to cop a beating, so having a bike you don't care that much about in the bag is a good starting point. To protect the bike a little, I take off the dérailleur and pedals, use spacers in the frame to reduce impacts and pack the inside of the bag with helmet, shoes and rear rack placed strategically to take hits before the frame does. I also take a few spares in the bag to ensure I can ride at the other end, like a spare rear drop out and a multi tool to do some repairs. But I'll say it again, taking a bike you don't care about is the best way to reduce stress when travelling!

You may want to check the frame replacement warranty with your manufacturer (BMC I assume!) as some manufacturers offer a full crash replacement warranty and others offer a reduced cost crash replacement program that means you can get a replacement at something like half the normal price. This may not be around the $1700 amount, but if you can front up with a replacement quote closer to that ballpark, it might be a good start.

Did you book your flights with a credit card that offers some travel insurance? You may be able to get something out of that.

I hope this experience doesn't discourage you from flying with your bike again and I hope you get a good resolution!

Hi iqis60, great to know there are other frequent riders/flyers (frequent flyer cyclist = FFC?) on the AFF forum.

Great suggestions above. I travelled three times with an Elite hard case, but it weighed 32KG when the bike was inside. And it was a HASSLE to get into a taxi, on a subway/train. Not to mention taking up way too much of my allowable international baggage limit. That's why I travelled with the soft bag. Looking at my flight log, I would have done 50+ flight legs with the soft bag with no incident over the two years I've been using Qantas.

Also, my line of work (in the cycling industry) required me to take my "nice bike" so I would give the best possible impression when rode with clients (yes, nice job for a cyclist.. .

I do have separate travel insurance which maxes out at a limit much, much less than a replacement frame.

None of this has discouraged me from flying with a bike! It has only encouraged me to look at cycle-specific insurance.

As a complete aside, where is the most interesting place you've flown with your road bike?

 

[FlyingScotsman]

Hi FlyingScotsman,

Ignoring QF for a minute, what is your actual travel insurance situation?
Do you have travel insurance full stop?
Is it included with your credit card?
Or are you completely without travel insurance and thus forced to make the claim with QF?

Hi Harvyk,

Cheers for your questions.

I have travel insurance with QBE (booked through Qantas ironically).
I only use debit Visa cards, with no additional insurance coverage.
I'm pursuing Qantas first as they (and/or QF staff/agents on the ground) were directly responsible for the damage and therefore they are directly responsible for covering as much as I can reasonably expect based on the events, conventions, etc.

Additionally, I never signed a "fragile items" waiver at check-in which is why I'm able to pursue this in the first place.

 

[harvyk]

The basic questions are - has QF made an offer to repair the bike? and is that offer satisfactory?

If the answer is no on either account I would be contacting QBE (the fact is was arranged via QF makes no difference)... Whilst it was QF which did the damage your baggage (including the bike) QBE would be the ones to speak to. I believe QBE just requires you to have made contact with the airline first.

They should pay upto the amount which their PDS states they will insure for damage without loss, but chances are that it won't be an overly high amount so you may find that even that is too low to properly repair the bike \ cover loss of resale value. (The separate bike coverage probably has a much higher limit given the higher value of bikes compared to suitcases of clothing)

 

[iqis60]

Hi iqis60, great to know there are other frequent riders/flyers (frequent flyer cyclist = FFC?) on the AFF forum.

Great suggestions above. I travelled three times with an Elite hard case, but it weighed 32KG when the bike was inside. And it was a HASSLE to get into a taxi, on a subway/train. Not to mention taking up way too much of my allowable international baggage limit. That's why I travelled with the soft bag. Looking at my flight log, I would have done 50+ flight legs with the soft bag with no incident over the two years I've been using Qantas.

Also, my line of work (in the cycling industry) required me to take my "nice bike" so I would give the best possible impression when rode with clients (yes, nice job for a cyclist.. .

I do have separate travel insurance which maxes out at a limit much, much less than a replacement frame.

None of this has discouraged me from flying with a bike! It has only encouraged me to look at cycle-specific insurance.

As a complete aside, where is the most interesting place you've flown with your road bike?

I haven't taken the roadie to many exciting places, the most exciting place I've taken the roadie is down to Adelaide for the tour down under. Riding through the hills with Phil Liggett's group was lot's of fun. I've had better adventures with the hard tail with semi slicks on, riding the climbs of the Tour de France before and after the peleton came through. Highlight was having a Swiss friend taking me through the back roads of the pre alps, with the cow bells ringing, crossing mountain streams and then popping out at Col de Moses just in time to see the peleton go by! (At the end of the day at his families place, I was commenting to his parents that it was nice to be finally riding through the alps and they said something like "Hahaha, they aren't the alps, they're the pre alps!").

Sounds like I can't give you too much advice on travelling with the bike. You are stuck between a rock and a hard place needing a decent roadie for work whilst on the road. It's pretty much impossible to travel with a soft bag and not expect to get damage at some point. And it's pretty much impossible to be mobile with a hard case! Insurance is probably your only avenue.

I have insurance with Velosure for the bike, it's not super cheap, but in your case it would be tax deductible. I should note that you need to make sure you tell them you will be travelling overseas to get cover for that. If you do get some insurance, send me a PM and I'll give you a referral number to quote so I get a small kickback . Another mob you might want to check out is Real Insurance. I mention them because they have done a great job of supporting mountain biking recently, so it's right to support them.

On a side note, it's only going to take one joker to design a full carbon fibre sub 4kg hard case that goes for $10K and all the latte sippers will go bonkers for them. Maybe I should get to work .

 

[RB]

Also, my line of work (in the cycling industry) required me to take my "nice bike" so I would give the best possible impression when rode with clients (yes, nice job for a cyclist.. .

Depending on your employment status (employee/self-employed/contractor) maybe the most effective thing to do is approach an insurance broker for a business package with cover for away from business premises. You are looking at pretty specific cover so will probably cost more but would be more tailored to your needs. Just a thought, what sort of public liability cover do you have for the rides that you take your clients on?-have you checked on your obligations/ possible pitfalls?


Just editing to say that maybe your business and/or your boss may already have a cover that will cover your current damage and it hasn't been considered.

 

[Alanslegal]

Sorry to hear about your damage bicycle FlyingScotsman . It must be heartbreaking to see so much effort to protect your bicycle only to see careless handling by whoever involved.

I am a MTB'er so great to see other AFF bicycle riders out there (whether road, street, park, track, mountain or off-ride).

My MTB is not as pricey ~$5k but insurance wise, I have a CycleCover policy which combines home contents and bicycles incl. transit cover. There is no money limit per bicycle so may be useful in your situation, also no limits to how many bikes is covered ... as long as the bicycles are mainly kept at your home unless travelling, also covers up to 90 days whilst overseas too.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

I believe that to get a higher payout thatnyou, the plaintiff, need to prove negligence on behalf of the airline. this is where it gets complicated.

a fragile label goes part way to showing that the airline should have known the item needed special handling. but then airlines will not pay out for improperly packed items (they could argue a hard case would have been better).

so what have you got to help your case? did you say your bike was delivered on the general carousel? and not separately at over sized luggage? this might assist you to show that the bag was willingly mishandled (the fragile label would help here to show that it should have gone on to a separate carousel).

you might also contact the airline (doubtful they'll help with this!) and ask the. what arrangements they have with the australian airport. question for the handling of fragile and/or oversized baggage.

if they say they have no special arrangments in place (for example, delivery on a separate carousel, or arrangments to allow you tom pick up the bag from the freight terminal) that might suggest they do not have adequate handling arrangements in place.

try first off with a call to your local consumer affairs agency in your state. they have large call centres and will be able to either advise you or provide further suggestions on where you might find help.

you may well need to go to an aviation law specialist (not least because it will save you $$ charged to research aviation law by a non-expert).

alternatively, claiming on your insurance may lead to the insurance company taking on the fight for you.

going to be a long shot, but it is not unforeseeable that a bike handled inappropriately could lead to damage. did they do it purposely or recklessly, that is where the handling arrangements may come in to play.