First Class redemption on QF flights

[GoldenWinger]

Unless you're QF Platinum where you can request First Class, it seems that QF doesn't release any redemption seats in First Class - even flights that are still full of F seats just days before departure...example checked flights on 29DEC07 for SYD-LAX - QF107 has 9 F seats and QF11 had 11 seats, yet the award availability shows no seats. In fact for 2008 it seems there are no F redemptions.

How will this work next year when they introduce "any seat available" - it looks like F class will be charged an obscene amount of points....

 

[Dave Noble]

Um. they do release seatst , just that there are not that many seats released and they are often taken fairly quickly

Dave

 

[Platy]

Um. they do release seatst , just that there are not that many seats released and they are often taken fairly quickly

Dave

Um. Yes, but no, but yes, but no..Ma'am Platy is bronze to my platinum. She can't see redemption seats on flights that I can in the award flight booking engine. As a platinum I'm not complaining, but if I wasn't WP I wouldn't be happy.

 

[Reggie]

Um. Yes, but no, but yes, but no..Ma'am Platy is bronze to my platinum. She can't see redemption seats on flights that I can in the award flight booking engine. As a platinum I'm not complaining, but if I wasn't WP I wouldn't be happy.

Platy, the only extra award seat you can see over Ma'am Platy will be some economy awards in a different fare bucket. All levels have access to the same award J and F. The main advantage that WP has for the premium seats is that can sometimes have availability made available by requesting it.

 

[GoldenWinger]

...Platinum and Gold for Economy Class have access to T and X inventory so there is more availability - however for First its now only P and Business is U inventory for all QF status...the thing which is most annoying is that even with plenty of seats just even a day out QF will not release any F class redemptions...BA on the other hand does - it's normally pretty easy to get First on BA one or two days before departure if they have unsold commercial seats.

 

[Dave Noble]

Um. Yes, but no, but yes, but no..Ma'am Platy is bronze to my platinum. She can't see redemption seats on flights that I can in the award flight booking engine. As a platinum I'm not complaining, but if I wasn't WP I wouldn't be happy.

There is only additional inventory for economy class, not for 1st class to which the OP is referring

Davd

 

[Evan]

What about J -> F upgrades ? i asume the use a few for that 1 day out ?
I wish there was a way to see the F/J award buckets, EF is no good but do show the Y award redemption fare bucket.

E

 

[serfty]

...Platinum and Gold for Economy Class have access to T and X inventory so there is more availability - however for First its now only P and Business is U inventory for all QF status...the thing which is most annoying is that even with plenty of seats just even a day out QF will not release any F class redemptions...BA on the other hand does - it's normally pretty easy to get First on BA one or two days before departure if they have unsold commercial seats.

G'day GoldenWinger, welcome to AFF.

Actually, T class now represents a Discount Y+ fare bucket - this happened at the same time Z became P.

More here: http://www.frequentflyer.com.au/com.../qantas-booking-class-code-changes-11228.html

Qantas' current philosophy is based on the premise it's more cost effective in the long run to have First seats go out empty than fill them with upgraded or award redemption passengers.

 

[Platy]

There is only additional inventory for economy class, not for 1st class to which the OP is referring Davd

Maybe, I guess our experience using the award booking engine is for domestic travel, not first or business to LAX or some such trip. And yes, I only managed a BA (not QF) redemption ticket in first and that came online only about 5 days before departure. That brings us back to the question of limited avilability and where the bar is set...(let's not go there agin!).

 

[Platy]

G'day Qantas' current philosophy is based on the premise it's more cost effective in the long run to have First seats go out empty than fill them with upgraded or award redemption passengers.

Serfty, you may very well be right. If you have any hard evidence of this (rather than common conjecture), please, please, please do share it.....

 

[serfty]

No specific evidence to hand, only conclusions reached in conjunction with my observations and those posted by many regular travellers who are members of this and other similar fora.

One comparison often used to illustrate this is the overall quality of Service and Fit-out of first class cabins of most Legacy USA carriers when measured against that of general world wide Legacy carriers.

This is used to show what can happen in the long term when the front cabins of aircraft are always 'topped up' with elites who expect to use the 'space available' upgrade facilities available to them through their frequent flyer programs rather than pay a premium fare for First Class travel. Moreover, the USA has become the land of the "Instant Upgrade", where one can often book a seat directly into a First Class cabin for a similar or lower fare than standard flexible economy.

 

[simongr]

Unless you're QF Platinum where you can request First Class, it seems that QF doesn't release any redemption seats in First Class - even flights that are still full of F seats just days before departure...example checked flights on 29DEC07 for SYD-LAX - QF107 has 9 F seats and QF11 had 11 seats, yet the award availability shows no seats. In fact for 2008 it seems there are no F redemptions.

How will this work next year when they introduce "any seat available" - it looks like F class will be charged an obscene amount of points....

Are you just referring to the SYD-LAX route? There is plenty of F to HKG next December - well I only opted for one person travelling though...

There is J available to LAX and F back in Dec next year.

 

[Petch]

Moreover, the USA has become the land of the "instant Upgrade", where one can often book a seat directly into a First Class cabin for a similar of lower fare than standard flexible economy.

I know the Qantas yield management handbook lists this as the ultimate business blunder, but I will respectfully point out Qantas has got it wrong!

I fly a bit with Qantas group airlines, but will never pay the ridiculous prices QF expect in premium cabins, nor, as of 08/09, will I pay their ridiculously increasing Economy prices. I am happy though, to fly Jetstar, so long as their fares remain reasonable.

Conversely, I do a whole lot less flying in the USA, and yet AA makes a heap more dollars from me than Qantas - as I often pay the price they ask for an Instant Upgrade, because I see some value in it! The best Qantas gets out of me is - SuperSaver + points upgrade, or Star Class (either by Paid Upgrade at Check-in, pre-purchased sale price or $239 domestic).

I am very interested to see how Virgin Blue will price their new seats. But unfortunately I think their pricing has lost the plot since they employed ex-Ansett corporate sales people doing the same old same old, so I am not holding my breath. (i.e. enormously high advertised prices, so they can seemingly mark them down with enormously high percentage discounts to entice corporates.)

And for anyone that thinks frequent travellers won't fly Tiger, all their fares have a $10 (+$3cc) change fee, and you can change the date/time, and move to entirely different city pairs. (Frequency is still an issue, but these days I am able to comply with Jetstar schedules or Red-E-Deal inflexibility, so it's not a giant leap, moving to Tiger.) It is a credit to Qantas' marketing power, low levels of competition and Australian business' resistance to change, that our airlines can still charge extra upfront for "fully flexible".

 

[Dave Noble]

I know the Qantas yield management handbook lists this as the ultimate business blunder, but I will respectfully point out Qantas has got it wrong

Umm, can I respectfully point you towards the airlines profit reports; QF can sell their business cabin for a business fare whilst AA is selling only a small percentage for a premium fare and a lot of "instant upgrades" or the "everyone gets an upgrade" electronic upgrade credits plus the free upgrades for Executive Platinum members


Dave

 

[Petch]

point you towards the airlines profit reports; QF can sell their business cabin for a business fare whilst AA is selling only a small percentage for a premium fare

As I mentioned; competition, resistance to change & brand affinity are the real factors effecting Qantas' ability to milk its customers. (But, I was only discussing paid Instant Upgrades, not AA loyalty reward upgrades.)

But, to take your logic a step further, imagine if Qantas could continue to milk the premium cream, but also get more dollars out of me! That would enhance its bottom line even further.

Unfortunately the barriers to new market entrants are very high in Australia, and we suffer for it.

I continue to disagree with your position. I see a hole in Qantas’ stack of cards, and this is the card that if pulled, will bring it all tumbling down. (For someone with the balls to do it, the situation is made even better by Qantas’ culture indoctrination, where its entire staff believe this tactic is the cow that is being milked, rather than the market environment.)

 

[Reggie]

But, to take your logic a step further, imagine if Qantas could continue to milk the premium cream, but also get more dollars out of me! That would enhance its bottom line even further.

Petch, with this situation you find pax like me who currently pay for premium cabin, booking an economy ticket, then buying my way cheaply into the premium cabin thus lowering the amount of dollars they get. How many other premium pax that would have been prepared to pay full price, would instead pay economy looking of the much chepaer paid upgrade.

In the US a few years ago I was in the middlw of a DONE4 but needed to add some flight in, and definitely couldn't justify the cost of first so went the economy route. On check in I was offered an upgrade for $100, I was up for $75 in excess luggage so, in fact I got the upgrae for $25, much less than the $900 difference at time of booking.

 

[Platy]

On check in I was offered an upgrade for $100, I was up for $75 in excess luggage so, in fact I got the upgrae for $25, much less than the $900 difference at time of booking.

I'm sure you are right, but hold on, I'm getting confused! The immediate questions for QF are whether

1. They have their business class priced correctly
2. Whether the points redemption upgrade/award seats are in over or under supply for purposes of customer loyalty/retention

QF do not currently offer on departure PAID upgrades, do they? (I notice Jetstar do for international, however).

Personally, QF have priced me out of the domestic business class market. Thus I agree with Petch that QF may have their pricing model incorrect, since instead of spending over $20,000 on QF business domestic flights per year, I now do the same journeys for less than $5,000. The savings will buy me an annual rtw world (eg DONE4) fare of which just a few flights will show revenue to QF. Thus they have lost about 70% of the former revenue from me and I can still achieve WP if so inclined.

I also agree with Petch that folk at the flying roo are enamoured with their own hype and the airline could face a "tipping point".

ALL of my friends and colleagues "put up" with QF with varying degrees of tolerance - there is a lot of "bad energy" (sorry couldn't think of a better term) about QF out there, which may not be fully reflected in their figures, but could realise to their detriment (eg. banks were once respected but too many customer unfriendly practices have led them to become a negative branding self parody, or another example, the collective swing against an apparently popular and supposedly economically successful PM). Obvious triggers for QF might include a tarnishing safety incident and loss of perceived "Australian" identity.

At Ma'am Platy's work, for example, a national pathology lab of 1000s employees, the company now uses the lowest cost airline on the day, and the prevailing opinion of colleagues in her local lab is that for personal travel never fly Jetstar (since 4 of them had bad experiences) and the QF FF scheme is a total waste of time since higher level folk only ever get to redeem an award.

Just because a company makes a big number profit doesn't necessarily mean it has long term customer loyalty strategy and brand strategy correct (although it obviously helps).

One final thing, people using POINTS for upgrades/redemptions have had to EARN those points in the first place...I'll stop here at risk of repeating debate from another thread!

Having said that I personanly don't like the idea of an on departure paid upgrade which is woefully underpriced. My concern is that folk who have earned points be allowed to redeem them.

 

[Reggie]

I'm sure you are right, but hold on, I'm getting confused! The immediate questions for QF are whether

1. They have their business class priced correctly
2. Whether the points redemption upgrade/award seats are in over or under supply for purposes of customer loyalty/retention

QF do not currently offer on departure PAID upgrades, do they? (I notice Jetstar do for international, however).

Um this thread is about premium class FF redemption, namely first class. I responded to a post about QF loosing money becasue of not offering purchased upgrades.

1. I believe that J is overpriced, as is milk, potatoes and fuel. However from Qantas point of view it isn't because they pretty much fill the seats. I have not seen an empty J seat between PER and the ast coast in a long long time.

2. Based on supply and demand, the seats offered for points redemption is undersupplied, or points oversupplied with QF selling too many points to partners and not offering enough ways to redeem.

No QF do not offer paid upgrades, hence my response to Petch.

Personally, QF have priced me out of the domestic business class market. Thus I agree with Petch that QF may have their pricing model incorrect, since instead of spending over $20,000 on QF business domestic flights per year, I now do the same journeys for less than $5,000.

The seat you are not buying, they are selling to someone else, so they aren't loosing.

the QF FF scheme is a total waste of time since higher level folk only ever get to redeem an award.

Rubbish, Every FF member has the same ability to get award flights. The VFFers are more aware they have to book early. The normal FFer thinks they can ring up a month before and book a flight to LAX in J, and then cough and complain when they can't. I have always managed to get award seats by bveing flexible or booking in advance, and this is for J. Yes WP get additional seating availability in Y, but doesn't mean they yake all the seats offered.

I must add however when it comes to upgrade requests I have had a very poor record, but thats life, I can accept that its not in QF's interest to downgrade their premium cabin by filling it with upgrades.

Having said that I personanly don't like the idea of an on departure paid upgrade which is woefully underpriced. My concern is that folk who have earned points be allowed to redeem them.

We agree.

 

[Petch]

Petch, with this situation you find pax like me who currently pay for premium cabin, booking an economy ticket, then buying my way cheaply into the premium cabin thus lowering the amount of dollars they get.

I guess in this situation, a 3rd level of service, possibly a truly Premium Service, might be the way an airline would go. Thus those of us prepared to pay a LITTLE extra (dollars/loyalty) to get a better seat/experience can get it, while those like you, who are prepared to pay a lot more, get something rather special.

I have only flown 6 sectors 07/08 on QF domestic J, but with my small sample I can not believe that someone paying full whack for those seats/that experience, thinks they are getting value for money!

 

[Reggie]

I guess in this situation, a 3rd level of service, possibly a truly Premium Service, might be the way an airline would go. Thus those of us prepared to pay a LITTLE extra (dollars/loyalty) to get a better seat/experience can get it, while those like you, who are prepared to pay a lot more, get something rather special.

I have only flown 6 sectors 07/08 on QF domestic J, but with my small sample I can not believe that someone paying full whack for those seats/that experience, thinks they are getting value for money!

What I pay for, and expect to get is a wider seat, and more leg room. I am 6'2" and am larger than the average person. As such I prefer not to be crammed into a Y seat for 3 to 5 hours on PER interstate flights. I would be one of those people that other pax, pray that I am not seated next to them.

As such I pay for the added comfort. As I am normally having to drive at my destination, the free alcohol is o f no benefit. The meals are OK when they manage to load them, the service would be classed as poor compared to AA F and BA J, but is definitley better than QF Y which I had the unlucky experience of finding out when PER-MEL flight was cancelled and I ended up in Y on the next flight.

What is it that you would want in a 3rd level of service.