Interesting event on FR24, QR out of Doha.

[jb747]

Qatar Airways flight 787 loses height after take off | Flightradar24 Blog

A Qatar Airways 787 quickly descended to 800 feet after taking off from Doha, before resuming its climb and safely flying to Copenhagen.

www.flightradar24.com

Historically, this sort of thing is often on the first paragraph of the accident report.

 

[Mattg]

This is quite concerning.

Is it just me, or is it bizarre that this was not reported at the time and we're only finding out about it a month later? Surely some of the passengers must have noticed the sudden descent after takeoff.

Given the airline involved, I suspect one or both pilots would have been fired if they had reported - which is probably part of the problem. But that's probably now the end result anyway.

I note the 2am departure time, so it was dark and the pilot flying could have been fatigued.

 

[jb747]

This is quite concerning.

I'm surprised it got out at all. QR are especially good at sweeping under the carpet. I'm surprised FR24 hasn't had the hounds put on to it already.

I note the 2am departure time, so it was dark and the pilot flying could have been fatigued.

Dark. So what... Surely they can fly in the dark. What if it's cloudy?

Fatigue. Departing home base? Shouldn't be, but that might tell you something about rostering practices. Perhaps.

Gulf Air Flight 072 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Minimum autopilot engagement altitude is 200' for the 787. Whilst having a manual fly is nice, doing so in the middle of the night is simply asking for trouble.

 

[RooFlyer]

Aviation Herald has some details reported to it.

According to information The Aviation Herald received on Feb 7th 2023 the first officer was pilot flying. At about 1600 feet the aircraft was cleared direct to the next waypoint and the first officer attempted to turn towards that waypoint flying manually and without flight director indications (the captain was slow to put the Direct into the FMS) but lost situational awareness sending the aircraft into a descent that reached 3000 fpm sink rate and exceeded the flap speed limits until the captain took control of the aircraft and recovered about 800 feet above water. The occurrence was not reported to the authorities and only came to light later.

 

[Mattg]

Dark. So what... Surely they can fly in the dark. What if it's cloudy?

Fair point. Being dark (or poor visibility generally), is the pilot not more susceptible to spacial disorientation since there may not be the visual cue of a horizon?

Fatigue. Departing home base? Shouldn't be, but that might tell you something about rostering practices. Perhaps.

I obviously don't know where his/her circadian rhythm was at - but being 2am they may not have been at peak performance. The rostering practices of QR is more what I was getting at.

I'm not here to question you @jb747, you know a lot more about this stuff than I do so please correct me if I'm wrong

 

[Quickstatus]

So the PF (FO) can't manually fly an aircraft at night using instruments?

By now, the FDR and CVR data would be long gone.

 

[jb747]

Fair point. Being dark (or poor visibility generally), is the pilot not more susceptible to spacial disorientation since there may not be the visual cue of a horizon?

Very much so. But that's part of the deal with doing this professionally. Not only are you supposed to know how to do it, but you're also supposed to know when not to. This is literally what autopilots are for. It should have been take off, 200 feet AGL, engage the A/P.

The rostering practices of QR is more what I was getting at.

Yes....

So the PF (FO) can't manually fly an aircraft at night using instruments?

I wonder if the HUD is an issue in this. I've never used one, but from what I gather they can allow extremely accurate guidance but through what you might describe as a very small window.

 

[Quickstatus]

HUD

Isn't the HUD just a facsimile of the PFD? But just in one green colour?. Apart from colour are there differences which may cause confusion?

Does the PFD/HUD display the actual flight vector?. Eg if the pitch is up but the flight vector is descending?

 

[jb747]

There's a huge difference.
787 PFD

https://www.alamy.com/stock-image-b...isplay-glass-coughpit-coughpit-164350655.html

787 HUD

https://i.redd.it/41o0wl1b94361.jpg

The PFD display covers about 50º, whilst the HUD is only about 10º. I image it would be like trying to fly though a magnifying glass. Really useful at times, but not giving an overall picture.

There is a flight path vector on both. The small aeroplane(ish) symbol.

 

[Mattg]

I know it’s the Daily Mail, so not a 100% reliable source, but there’s a passenger recount here:

Flyer on 787 that plummeted after Doha take-off recalls cabin panic

Lucas Andersson was a passenger on flight QR161 from Doha to Copenhagen on January 10, a 2am flight that plummeted at a rate of 50 feet a second after it took to the air.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[jb747]

I know it’s the Daily Mail, so not a 100% reliable source, but there’s a passenger recount here:

I have my doubts about all of this article. There are lots of pitch changes during a departure, and generating the sink rate recorded here wouldn’t have required much. Perhaps 3-5º lower than the normal target. And whilst the media loves to describe the pitch rate as a plummet, 2,500 fpm is nothing unusual at all. Certainly obvious if you were watching the screen displays (if on), but as any pilot will tell you, what you feel in an aircraft is almost certainly not related to what the aircraft is actually doing. The real danger in something like this is that it is insidious, and not at all obvious to the support pilot, unless he happens to be watching the PFD. In this case I think the Captain was entering a route change into the FMC, so was head down…and I guess he got quite a surprise when he looked up again. And if it’s not obvious to the support pilot, I doubt that the punters are likely to be any more aware.

 

[OATEK]

I have my doubts about all of this article. There are lots of pitch changes during a departure, and generating the sink rate recorded here wouldn’t have required much. Perhaps 3-5º lower than the normal target. And whilst the media loves to describe the pitch rate as a plummet, 2,500 fpm is nothing unusual at all. Certainly obvious if you were watching the screen displays (if on), but as any pilot will tell you, what you feel in an aircraft is almost certainly not related to what the aircraft is actually doing. The real danger in something like this is that it is insidious, and not at all obvious to the support pilot, unless he happens to be watching the PFD. In this case I think the Captain was entering a route change into the FMC, so was head down…and I guess he got quite a surprise when he looked up again. And if it’s not obvious to the support pilot, I doubt that the punters are likely to be any more award.

Is this likely to be a one-off aberration, or indicative of pilot quality more broadly. After all there are a lot off flights out of this part of the world in the middle of the night (unlike say Sydney). Did anything like this during take-off and climb happen when you were in the coughpit?

 

[jb747]

Kenya Airways 507. Gulf Air 72. There’s a couple just for starters.

Is this likely to be a one-off aberration, or indicative of pilot quality more broadly.

Pilot quality? No idea. My take is that anyone can probably become disoriented, but you should be managing the aircraft in such a way that you alleviate the risk. In particular, manually flying the aircraft during night departures, should really be avoided. That’s what the autopilot is for.

After all there are a lot off flights out of this part of the world in the middle of the night (unlike say Sydney). Did anything like this during take-off and climb happen when you were in the coughpit?

Never. But then again, not only did I use the autopilot, but I insisted that FOs did. By all means have a fly in nice daylight conditions, but practicing your manual flying in dark holes is what the sim is for. Actually managing the autopilot is not a straight forward set and forget operation, and I found that some people who were reluctant to use it (‘cos I like to manually fly) were often not very good at doing so. And, as often as not, pretty bad at flying manually too.

 

[tgh]

BUT wait .. there is more .. Is this a trend ?

United Airlines 777 dives after departure | Flightradar24 Blog

 

[RSD]

Just catching up on AFF after a busy couple of months. Having done too many EK and QR short haul flights recently I got the impression that the general quality of pilots there isn't what it used to be, one particular landing at DOH had me seriously thinking that we could be going for a swim in the Persian Gulf at the far end of 34L - sometimes it is better not to be watching the landing on the screen. Certainly startled a few people when I said a rather terse "Geezus F...ing Christ" as this pilot took landing long to a whole new level...