Is QANTAS still a safe airline?

[Sprucegoose]

I was reading an ABC article by Catherine Taylor this morning headlined “Can Qantas bounce back from the ‘perfect storm’”…..“ which pointedly asks “Have Australians fallen out of love with the QANTAS brand“?

The article related instances by ‘Tom’ (a senior Qantas pilot) where basic routine requirements (related to flight and flight safety) are not been met, he quotes “There is no one to talk to and when you go to work you are basically on your own”, he goes on to say this has never occurred in his previous three decades with the airline. And while these no doubt have an effect at the business level with customers and staff, at what point do these potentially contriubute to a more severe operational matters or a serious accident?

Many contribitors on this forum will have questioned their faith in Qantas to even answer the phones, but this is now more important and leads directly to the operational heart of the airline, to fly safely. The article and “Tom” are clearly indicating a changed operational environment which may have a profound effect on the airline.

I do not advise airline boards on the discharge of their duties. Clearly though the QANTAS Board, based (at least) on these media reports, need to urgently and independently reassure themselves and all connected that their operations do not pose serious operational and possibly existential threats.

At what point would you or should you be alarmed given it would appear QANTAS clearly isn’t the well oiled machine it once was?
Have Australians fallen out of love with Qantas? If so what needs to be done In your view?

Are you concerned?



Have Australians fallen out of love with Qantas?

 

[RooFlyer]

That's a very sobering article. From it, I wouldn't pose the question whether Qantas was safe to fly, but I would pose, and answer, others:

Is Qantas a reliable airline to fly? - No.
Is Qantas being run competently? - No.
Is it worth it to pay to fly Qantas? - No.

All very, very sad. As I've mentioned before, I'm burning my Qantas FF points as fast as I can, and now I'm even booking parallel Virgin revenue flights for the critical ones to hopefully ensure I get to the destination.

 

[justinbrett]

Nothing in that article questions safety. Safety happens despite management, not because of it - it's the professionalism from front line captains and FOs and a positive safety culture that keep Qantas a safe airline.

I've heard a few people trying to use the Perth fuel issue as another stone to throw at Qantas and frankly it just makes it obvious that person doesn't know what they're talking about.

As you created this post to talk about safety I'll leave that there, the rest belongs in one of the many rant threads.

 

[jb747]

The article related instances by ‘Tom’ (a senior Qantas pilot) where basic routine requirements (related to flight and flight safety) are not been met, he quotes “There is no one to talk to and when you go to work you are basically on your own”, he goes on to say this has never occurred in his previous three decades with the airline. And while these no doubt have an effect at the business level with customers and staff, at what point do these potentially contriubute to a more severe operational matters or a serious accident?

Whilst I'm sure the article has many valid points, the last time any media article mentioned "a senior Qantas pilot", it was no such thing, but rather a claim from a non pilot (almost certainly an engineer) relating to overseas servicing. Tom should know that he is the final arbiter of safety, and that part of the checklist includes the question of whether he's actually happy to go. If the company is not operationally up to speed, then that's the time to be talking to CASA, not the media.

 

[jakeseven7]

This article doesn’t even question safety?

No domestic AU airline is as reliable right now as it was pre-pandemic - many whine threads dedicated to issues with all carriers at the moment.

People can luck with one of the other 3 big carriers if you are not happy I guess with an airline, it’s pretty simple.

 

[Quickstatus]

Safety happens despite management, not because of it

Safety happens when the whole organisation is focused on it. It is an organisational outcome rather than the outcome of one segment of an organisation. In fact safety is not possible to achieve with even a whole of organisation focus - need to add in external processes/controls as well (eg regulatory)
Safety often does not suddenly fail, there is invariably a lead up to the failure:

I highly recommend this Book for an insightful treatise on why systems fail. It’s a short book also available on Audible

 

[justinbrett]

Safety happens when the whole organisation is focused on it. It is an organisational outcome rather than the outcome of one segment of an organisation.
Safety often does not suddenly fail, there is invariably a lead up to the failure:

I highly recommend this Book for an insightful treatise on why systems fail.

JB made my point much more articulately

 

[Quickstatus]

made my point

Hmm I disagree (wrt to @jb747) , there is much more to safety than just pilot culture. I’m sure you can name a few factors that affect safety than just pilots.

Note he said:

final arbiter of safety

Not the “arbiter of safety”

Even passengers are important in safety culture. Safety in a highly complex technical industry (which also has a sociotechnical component) cannot just be carried by pilots.

 

[justinbrett]

Hmm I disagree (wrt to @jb747) , there is much more to safety than just pilot culture. I’m sure you can name a few factors that affect safety than just pilots.

Absolutely, but in the context of this thread, it is a cop out for a pilot to be raising the safety flag to the media (if he even is a pilot) when he's in the best position to influence, either internally or externally (via CASA etc). Which I don't even think he is raising it, that article barely mentions safety, and when it does, it was him and an expert both saying QF would never knowingly jeopardise safety.

Things like lost bags, long call centre wait times etc aren't safety issues. It's another article trying to conflate unrelated things together to alarm the public.

 

[Quickstatus]

the context of this thread

Which is about safety.

Lost bags and long waiting call centre times are not indications of a possible breakdown in safety culture?.
Suggest read the book I suggested. There is more to this subject than on first appearances.

Let me speculate a bit:
Lost bags, long waiting call centre times - possibly poor training, reduced financial resources, pressure on staff?. None of this affects safety?. Now I don’t know the reasons of the above observations but what if I’m right?

 

[justinbrett]

Which is about safety.

Lost bags and long waiting call centre times are not indications of a possible breakdown in safety culture?.
Suggest read the book I suggested. There is more to this subject than on first appearances.

Yes I know, I've done the annual training every year for the last 20 years. I'm not disagreeing with you but as to to the title of this thread, yes, Qantas is still a safe airline. I think you're trying to turn this debate into something else.

 

[Quickstatus]

you're trying to turn this debate into something else.

You’re free to think whatever you like. My point is that safety is an intra and extra organisational issue that is affected by all sorts of factors both within and outside of the airline’s control.

Again, im not a safety expert but I know there is more to the subject

 

[RooFlyer]

This article doesn’t even question safety?

No, the OP did. If you don't like the premise, then maybe don't engage with it?

many whine threads dedicated to issues with all carriers at the moment.

... many whine threads that you also happily participate in . And I'm not sure that benchmarking Qantas against other airlines as to problems is a fantastic way to counter them. "Qantas. We are only as bad as all the others!"

I think the message from the ABC article is: 'How deep do the obvious and recurrent problems in Qantas go? Do they go to issues that affect more important things?' I think that it's a fair question.

I take JB's point about the ABC 'source' (but he/she may well be a pilot), but even if it was an engineer or such, its a concern. People go to the media when they are frustrated that 'channels' are blocked or don't listen. Dismissing it as equivalent to people complaining (legitimately) about bags etc trivialises legitimate concerns.

 

[justinbrett]

You’re free to think whatever you like. My point is that safety is an intra and extra organisational issue that is affected by all sorts of factors both within and outside of the airline’s control.

And I agree with it, as I already said... so lets leave it at that.

 

[justinbrett]

I take JB's point about the ABC 'source' (but he/she may well be a pilot), but even if it was an engineer or such, its a concern. People go to the media when they are frustrated that 'channels' are blocked or don't listen. Dismissing it as equivalent to people complaining (legitimately) about bags etc trivialises legitimate concerns.

"Tom" never questioned safety. The journalist did, and was given answers by Webber and "Tom" that addressed these concerns.

 

[Quickstatus]

How deep do the obvious and recurrent problems in Qantas go?

Another way of asking the safety question is “ the aircraft have not crashed - does that mean it’s safe”. And “is it only unsafe if an aircraft crashes”

So how is safety measured?. Is it even measurable?

Just read the book

 

[Quickstatus]

Written by the ABC instantly raises a big question. I’m don’t think that the ABC is a doyenne of unbiased journalism

 

[OATEK]

Many in the wider community would see the question as to whether it was "safe" to fly with QANTAS as being about whether or not they are likely to deliver the product paid for, eg Is QANTAS a safe bet for my holiday booking. Not sure the OP was really raising any tangible safety concerns, more the general safe as in reliable. Personally I don't think any airlines are particularly reliable, and QANTAS is certainly at the bottom of the many people's list in this regard. But I am not sure there is any greater safety concerns than many other airlines at present, probably much less than some.

 

[Quickstatus]

greater safety concerns

The public and that includes AFF forum lurkers have practically zero visibility into the operations of any airline and significantly have zero ability to determine the relative safety of any airline even if they did have that visibility.

All we have are glimpses into what might be going on based on media reports, personal accounts, the occasional near-miss or crash and regulatory reports.

Add to that our confirmation biases - the most common one is that airlines/airline employees from certain countries are less safe than others.

Our experiences are based on the soft product - the service level, catering, cabin, punctuality, price of fares, frequency, routings and through that we try to infer the relative safety of an airline.

Is QF still a safe airline?. I don’t know if it is less safe now than before but I have concerns.
Are there safer airlines?. I don’t know.

It is one of the reasons I decided to curtail airline travel in the immediate post covid period. I hate to say that I foresaw capability/capacity lagging behind demand. When that happens, not only do you get chaos, but potentially a drop in safety.

 

[justinbrett]

You can however take solace in the regulators and really any Australian based airline is going to be operating world best practices WRT safety standards.

No about of ranting about lost bags or long call waiting times is going to change that; we have thousands of professionals employed to ensure that is the case.