Johannesburg

[UP4014]

Need an update from anyone, back in the apartheid days it was quite a safe place to hire a car and drive around anywhere, but now? (will be there next month for a railway conference, I did just note that people even steal railway sleepers from active lines)

Matt

 

[casanovawa]

Where abouts, Cape Town, Joburg?

I hired a car late last year and drove from Joburg to Kruger NP for a couple of days and back and made it out alive....

 

[JohnM]

I've rented a car in JNB (drove out to Kruger and back - both motorway and minor roads) & CPT (drove around CPT and out to Stellenbosch and a little way up the E coast) in recent years and haven't had any problems.

I'm renting a car in JNB and spending about 10 days driving around the Drakensburgs and to Pretoria in early July.

Always give the 'parking attendants' in public parking lots a Rand or two for 'looking after' your car. It's their way of generating a job for themselves, which I admire.

Credit cards are not well-accepted at smaller fuel stations (OK at big servos on the motorway). Rent something fast if getting out on a motorway so you can keep up . Lots of Mercs in S Africa as they have a plant there (in fact I think the C Series that lob into Australia are manufactured there.)

 

[casanovawa]

Did I hear that if you don't pay the attendants that they do the opposite of minding/protecting the car??

I had a smallish hire car (but then i can do a lot with a little ) and on the way out to Kruger NP i think the speed limit was 120kmh but you could frrequently run into vehicles doing 70kmh or so (vans with what looked like mattresses and all on the roof, didn't know if they were heading over into Mozambique or what the deal was, not the most safe looking arrangement?!?) and others flying up behind you, so always worth watching out around the place...

Think i just used my Citi Debit card and was accepted ok....

 

[JohnM]

Did I hear that if you don't pay the attendants that they do the opposite of minding/protecting the car??

I saw no indication of that. But you pay them as you drive out anyway. Keep a stash of coins for it.

I just admired these people for having a go at doing something, even if the reality was that 'security' wasn't needed when parking in a shopping or natural attraction car park. Smile and have a chat - they invariably have a bright, happy outlook. Even more positive and encouraging, look out for your 'agent' when you drive in to a car park and actively call him over and ask that your car be looked after - they love the personal feeling of being wanted IME.

 

[UP4014]

Thanks, I'll be visiting the rail yards Joburg and Pretoria so I'm sure they'll all perfectly safe places. (well they used to be 35 years ago )

Apart from the story of the stolen railway sleepers from active lines I noticed one company engaged to scrap locomotives had to have armed guards with shot guns standing over the scrap. geez, things seem to have really gone backward. I guess I remember when one Rand was equal to one Dollar.

 

[casanovawa]

Yes, it certainly seems to have made progress in some areas and regressed in others....

https://aforeignerinmyowncountry.wo...2/to-pay-or-not-to-pay-the-parking-attendant/

 

[vetrade]

There's no more danger in JNB than in a lot of Aussie cities like Redfern or St Albans. Our son lives there and never feels unsafe - just use common sense. Just like here you would be silly to go to the lower socio-economic areas, especially at night. Generally we found the Sth. Africans to be friendly and happy and never had any problems driving or interacting with them although it's still recommended that you be prepared to drive off if someone approaches your car while you're stopped at traffic lights (they call them robots). That includes leaving enough room behind the car in front to make sure you can't be hemmed in.

I would recommend you stay around the Sandton area to the north of the JNB CBD - some nice hotels around there and it's regarded as one of the better areas of the city. Tips are very appreciated. many of these people are particularly poor. The standard tip is 5 -10 Rand (5 - 10 cents) - generally not advisable to tip too much because you will stand out as a tourist and draw attention to yourself.

Driving around the city can be a PITA because a lot of roads are poorly signposted and it's easy to get stuck on one way streets where you can't turn around easily. The other thing we noticed was that even though people are not averse to helping with directions most of them are clueless about the suburbs and main roads and you could easily find that they inadvertently send you off in the wrong direction. I suggest you use a GPS. Highway driving to Kruger etc was easy - the main roads are generally well made and maintained, but minor roads can be very potholed and corrugated.

Edit: Re car size - if you intend to go on some rougher roads a small SUV might be advisable because of the better ground clearance but if you're just going to keep to main roads you won't need anything bigger than an intermediate sized sedan - they all seem to go plenty fast enough these days.

 

[drron]

I've rented a car in JNB (drove out to Kruger and back - both motorway and minor roads) & CPT (drove around CPT and out to Stellenbosch and a little way up the E coast) in recent years and haven't had any problems.

I'm renting a car in JNB and spending about 10 days driving around the Drakensburgs and to Pretoria in early July.

Always give the 'parking attendants' in public parking lots a Rand or two for 'looking after' your car. It's their way of generating a job for themselves, which I admire.

Credit cards are not well-accepted at smaller fuel stations (OK at big servos on the motorway). Rent something fast if getting out on a motorway so you can keep up . Lots of Mercs in S Africa as they have a plant there (in fact I think the C Series that lob into Australia are manufactured there.)

3 years ago we picked up a car at JNB and drove to the Drakensburgs then on to the Zulu wars battlefields dropping it at Durban airport.No problems,lovely drive and great people.

 

[UP4014]

Except stats seems to show if you're a policeman you're 9 times more likely to be shot in Johannesburg than if you are a copper in Detroit.

I'm guess many shootings go unreported in South Africa which is why I choose the police, those would be reported. I suspect saying it is no worse than a city in Australia is perhaps stretching it a little, perhaps your son doesn't want to you worry too much.

Yes, staying in Standton somewhere near the convention centre.

 

[vetrade]

Point taken - glad my son's not a copper then! But he isn't a gung ho type either and could be based in several other countries if he wanted so I'm sure he would have gone elsewhere by now if he felt at risk.

 

[medhead]

I'm around Darlinghurst every week, I've yet to see a guy with a machine gun and vest guarding an ATM. That was in Cape Town CBD a couple of weeks ago. Having said that I didn't feel unsafe at any time. But SWMBO's aunt was there a month or so back and they got robbed.

I'm not sure about people approaching at lights, there were plenty of guys trying to sell cough to cars stopped at traffic lights. Again around Cape Town.

Tipping was interesting, if paying for dinner by card they want you to add a tip into the eftpos terminal. I tended to charge the proper amount and then leave a cash tip. But I asked one of the hotel staff about how the tips were shared and if they preferred a cash tip, they said they liked the electronic tip better because they would spend cash too easily. If I was going to give someone money, it was a 50 rand note.

The hotel bar staff were paid 2/3 rand an hour $0.2 to $0.3 an hour! (so my tips were upto 25 hours worth, half a week) All of the restaurants seemed to have a lot of staff standing around doing nothing. There were dudes in hi viz standing around all over the streets as well.

got some stuff from a market, didn't bother haggling. The seller was like someone in a comedy sketch - talking themselves down in price. I just gave them full asking price, and told them to keep the 5 rand change. Some kids were feeding a seal near a fishing boat terminal, they got us some good pictures. I gave them 50 rand. Later in the day they chased away another kid who was begging for money. Yeah, being the flash tourist is a danger. But it was also very cheap to be generous, and that had benefits.

Also $32 for lobster and chips at the chippy at that fishing boat terminal.

 

[vetrade]

"I'm around Darlinghurst every week, I've yet to see a guy with a machine gun and vest guarding an ATM........."


Maybe it's time we tried that for its deterrent effect.

I won't go too far OT but some comment might be informative....

In MEL we have had a massive problem over the past 6 months with the Apex gang (Somalis, Islanders and some Middle Easteners). Large numbers of home invasions in the middle of the night, usually in more affluent suburbs where people are bashed and the keys to get the keys to their luxury cars which are then used for further crimes. These people have no hesitation in smashing windows and doors to get in. Some gang sex assaults on home occupants at the same time. Other times people find their cars rammed from behind and when they pullover they are confronted by a gang with baseball bats and machetes who then steal their car. They have been absolutely rampant and the problem has been exacerbated by the Vic police now abandoning car pursuits, which gives these people carte blanche to do what they like. Machineguns??? Hell yeah!

These are not isolated attacks - we have been getting reports of these virtually every day for months..........and the description of the attackers is always the same!

 

[UP4014]

"I'm around Darlinghurst every week, I've yet to see a guy with a machine gun and vest guarding an ATM........."


Maybe it's time we tried that for its deterrent effect.

I won't go too far OT but some comment might be informative....

In MEL we have had a massive problem over the past 6 months with the Apex gang (Somalis, Islanders and some Middle Easteners). Large numbers of home invasions in the middle of the night, usually in more affluent suburbs where people are bashed and the keys to get the keys to their luxury cars which are then used for further crimes. These people have no hesitation in smashing windows and doors to get in. Some gang sex assaults on home occupants at the same time. Other times people find their cars rammed from behind and when they pullover they are confronted by a gang with baseball bats and machetes who then steal their car. They have been absolutely rampant and the problem has been exacerbated by the Vic police now abandoning car pursuits, which gives these people carte blanche to do what they like. Machineguns??? Hell yeah!

These are not isolated attacks - we have been getting reports of these virtually every day for months..........and the description of the attackers is always the same!

That's not good at all. You need a state election so everyone can get tough on crime. I'm rarely for police abandoning pursuits unless they have the plan in place up the road to stop it, an all points for police to converge on them should be sent out straight away.

Back on topic, I have been to south and central american countries where safety is an issue and required close protection, high speed convoy driving and ignoring traffic signals and laws, for this post was looking for any recent updates so I can take what I need and plan accordingly, so thank you all for your input.

Matt

 

[casanovawa]

Several years back i was riding in the back of a taxi in Joburg and had my DSLR out as i was looking at the screen as I had taken a photo of the accommodation booking. A police car drove up next to us and they saw the camera i was looking at and joked with the driver that I was wanting to make a present of it or something so i took the hint and put it away...

As with here, and many other places, its probably best to not leave anything valuable lying around the place or around your body showing it off to much to make yourself to conspicuous.... There maybe even when driving in the car not letting bystanders see that you have something nice that they might want to come and grab... I haven't really stayed in Joburg much but it doesn't seem to have the best reputation, where as I have been to Cape Town several times and walked around and felt safe with whatever like the city guards or whatever those people are, not Police, but spread throughout the city... When i was there last i was down in the harbour area and it got dark and it was a bit of a walk back to where the accommodation area was so after asking a few people about the safety of it i decided to get a taxi back to the part of the city i was staying in...

The post further up, about the aunty getting robbed, i tend to think all over the world petty crims are usually fairly cowardly, they want easy targets that present the least threat to them getting what they want and getting away, so if you are of a half decent size and carry yourself like you are aware of your surroundings and not a dopey tourist you have already reduced your appeal as a target by quite a bit...

Also i was talking to a South African lady on the way down to Joburg on the last trip and she said if driving out to Kruger just have a 100 rand note in your wallet in case the Police stop you as I guess it may be open to debate about whether they will just take a bit of money if they see you're a foreigner and whether that money ever makes it into official coffers... So on the drive out there i hid all my foreign money and most of the Rand somewhere int he car I had rented and just left a bit in my wallet, but it was all pretty uneventful....

On the way back from Kruger when i detoured to see Blyde River Canyon i came to a stop sign and i reckon i stopped (mayne not a long stop), but then turned into the road and low and behold a copper i guess was there and pulled me over, showed me some dodgy photo copied list of traffic offences and fines, i think for not stopping at a stop sign it was like 600 or 650 rand... He wasn't going to let me off but after realising by my accent that i was foreign, and me telling him i was going back to Joburg to fly out, i asked if he would accept 200 rand, eventually he took 300 rand from memory, i couldn't go much lower in terms of this all I've got take it or leave it, as by this time i had quite a few notes of varying currency back in my wallet.... Anyway, take that for what its worth...

 

[medhead]

The post further up, about the aunty getting robbed, i tend to think all over the world petty crims are usually fairly cowardly, they want easy targets that present the least threat to them getting what they want and getting away, so if you are of a half decent size and carry yourself like you are aware of your surroundings and not a dopey tourist you have already reduced your appeal as a target by quite a bit...

I double checked the story as the Aunty and her husband were together in South Africa. They work a cattle station and the uncle certainly has a commanding presence. Turns out their stuff was taken from the hotel room. One thing I did over there was to use the do not disturb sign for the hotel room. But I did notice that the room safe was prominently featured in the room almost like a road runner cartoon with a big sign with arrow pointing at the safe.

 

[lovetravellingoz]

There's no more danger in JNB than in a lot of Aussie cities like Redfern or St Albans. .

I do not believe that to be true at all.

Not to say that you cannot be safe there. But it is a violent and dangerous city on scale well beyond any Australian City.

 

[vetrade]

I do not believe that to be true at all.

Not to say that you cannot be safe there. But it is a violent and dangerous city on scale well beyond any Australian City.

Every city has areas which are "violent and dangerous". To say that in JNB they're "on a scale beyond any Australian city" I think exaggerates the situation there. As as example, and since you are from MEL, lovetravellingoz, try driving through Dandenong after dark, or try catching a train there or if you really have a desire to see the inside of an ICU try walking anywhere around that city at night. Have you stayed or lived in JNB, lovetravellingoz? Do you have first hand experience of the place to enable you to form an informed opinion?

JNB suffers from a reputation gained many years ago which perpetuates today even though it has improved markedly. Have a look at the reviews on Tripadvisor of JNB from people who live or have stayed there for significant periods. TI think they should know what they are talking about and their opinions don't paint the city in anywhere near as bad a light as popular folklore would have it. It is blatant scaremongering to imply that anyone who goes there can expect to be a target of robbery or violence etc.

We drove around extensively there last year, including at night. We even got lost one night in JNB and found ourselves in a poorly lit area with no street signs (and a GPS on the blink) and the only people on the streets were black. In desperation after driving around for an hour trying to find our own way but seemingly only getting further disorientated we had to seek assistance. Despite quite a few not being knowledgeable enough to help us they were without exception very pleasant and keen to help. One young bloke even walked me to a supermarket around the corner to get the store owner to help. I knew of JNB's reputation before I went there and was wary but I came away after our stay thinking "what was all the fuss about?" Never once did we encounter any situations which were in the slightest bit intimidating. I have experienced confronting situations in BCN, Rome and Paris though.

 

[UP4014]

Looks like they have a 100 murders a week. If you have 40% unemployment and no welfare I guess the outcome is not unpredictable.

 

[JohnM]

Every city has areas which are "violent and dangerous". To say that in JNB they're "on a scale beyond any Australian city" I think exaggerates the situation there. As as example, and since you are from MEL, lovetravellingoz, try driving through Dandenong after dark, or try catching a train there or if you really have a desire to see the inside of an ICU try walking anywhere around that city at night. Have you stayed or lived in JNB, lovetravellingoz? Do you have first hand experience of the place to enable you to form an informed opinion?

JNB suffers from a reputation gained many years ago which perpetuates today even though it has improved markedly. Have a look at the reviews on Tripadvisor of JNB from people who live or have stayed there for significant periods. TI think they should know what they are talking about and their opinions don't paint the city in anywhere near as bad a light as popular folklore would have it. It is blatant scaremongering to imply that anyone who goes there can expect to be a target of robbery or violence etc.

We drove around extensively there last year, including at night. We even got lost one night in JNB and found ourselves in a poorly lit area with no street signs (and a GPS on the blink) and the only people on the streets were black. In desperation after driving around for an hour trying to find our own way but seemingly only getting further disorientated we had to seek assistance. Despite quite a few not being knowledgeable enough to help us they were without exception very pleasant and keen to help. One young bloke even walked me to a supermarket around the corner to get the store owner to help. I knew of JNB's reputation before I went there and was wary but I came away after our stay thinking "what was all the fuss about?" Never once did we encounter any situations which were in the slightest bit intimidating. I have experienced confronting situations in BCN, Rome and Paris though.

The same principle of current fear being induced by historical events becoming embedded in the psyche or in folklore applies not only for cities but countries. Think Rwanda and Colombia. Both wonderful places with lovely people that ignorance dictates are considered by most people to be a dystopian hell.

The genocide was 20 years ago; Pablo Escobar was rubbed out 20 years ago. From first-hand experience, the psyche of the people in both countries is remarkably similar - they recognise the past, but don't dwell on it. They recognise, in the unspoken context of 'never again', that the future is the positive place where hope and promise lie.

And what about NYC in the 1980s? Sure, it's possible to get into trouble in those places - just like there is the remote possibility of getting king-hit by a meth or booze-fuelled bogan in any 'civilised' Australian city on a Saturday night.