Kitchen design

[Deleted member 29185]

I know there are a lot of creative people on here, so I'll ask this question and hear the comments. I'm designing my wife's new kitchen and was wondering what are the really innovative "must-haves" these days. In my view, there's nothing wrong with our old kitchen (the red laminex is a fantastic hangover cure and the decomposing chipboard can be sprinkled over food to give that really unique flavour), but for some reason unfathomable to me, she seems to think it needs to go, so being the snag that I am and despite my misgivings at spending money we could be using for holidays, I'm reluctantly agreeing with her.

So I'm thinking that draws make more sense than cupboards. One stack with a shallow but fairly wide at the top to take frypans and dropping down to a deeper one at the bottom to take deep saucepans and baking dishes etc. Self closers seem logical (as everyone in my household bar me seems to have an aversion to actually closing cupboards etc), but are they problematic. Do they continue to work like they do in the shops? Then there's the all time problem of Tupperware. My +1 seems to have enough of that to fill a 40' shipping container, so what are the secrets to storing that? Draws I'm guessing (as they're currently in cupboards and seem to spend an awful lot of time falling out rather than staying in), so do you think a separate shallowish draw for all the lids is wise?

The benchtop will be granite and I was thinking of having a moulded sink and routed draining boards for ease of cleaning or should I just go with a stainless perch on top variety? My oldest daughter (who is currently studying architecture) wants the full length kitchen windows to drop down flush with the benchtops and only be head high instead of going up almost to the ceiling, but I'm not convinced that would be a good idea. I seem to think cleaning a splashback would be easier than cleaning windows although there are no cooking appliances (no fat spatters) on that side of the kitchen, just benchtop and the sink.

So, any design ideas, products or innovations that you've tried and tested and are happy to recommend for me to consider (in the name of a good cause........harmonious marriage)?

 

[RooFlyer]

I know there are a lot of creative people on here, so I'll ask this question and hear the comments. I'm designing my wife's new kitchen <snip>)?

Without wanting to impugn Mrs swanning_it ... do you really think that's a good idea? Or is it a dastardly plan by her to make it your kitchen?

Anyhoo ... having done 3 kitchen renos in the last 15 years my tips would be:

* F&P 2 drawer dishwasher - unbeatable (F&P patent may have expired by now)

* Self closing draws rather than cupboards as much as possible, sized as you mention for pots etc

* Go with bench top moulded around sinkS, and not stainless steel sink sides - if you have the dishwasher that obviates much of the use of the draining boards

* If you have room for a walk-in pantry, put a small sink in it. Place I'm in now has one and its comes in handy and I wouldn't have thought of it myself.

* I'd plan on having a row of herb pots against the kitchen window, on top of the bench.

* Spend time getting snazzy lights, with some spots over the sink, stove etc

* For any splashbacks, go stainless steel for stove and "slumped glass" for above other benches.

* Beware the make of range hoods you think about installing - the fans on some are very loud.

* Tupperware ... you are on your own.

But I would also suggest using one of those kitchen designer/modular builder/installer places; these days they offer much more than 'modular' stuff. The software also means you can build up the kitchen with various styles and see what its going to look like in 3D.

 

[Cynicor]

Tupperware- we (OCD ex, I'm as bad/worse) went with decor and Pyrex. 3 sizes of each only, and made sure we had nothing else. The 3 decor sizes have the same lid and shape so that they are all interchangeable and all stack together. It takes up no room.

Can't imagine putting my pans etc into drawers. Everything is Le Creuset cast iron and weighs a tonne. Check to make sure the drawers won't be dysfunctional if you chuck too much weight in them.

 

[RooFlyer]

The drawers will take significant loads without a problem (edit: except, I guess, you buy a cheapie).

 

[tgh]

get the granite professionally sealed
be aware that some granites are softer then others
be aware that modern stainless steel sinks are very soft and that high gloss will quickly be gone

 

[equus]

get the granite professionally sealed

Don't go granite or natural stone slab in the first place. Look at the manufactured stones (Caeser Stone, Quantum Quartz, Silestone etc. - there are heaps of them). Better uniformity (colour and pattern), and most importantly, most of them are fully impervious to start with. Normally much harder as well, don't have the surface imperfections (but don't think they will necessarily be cheaper). You can get them looking like natural granite or marble or whatever you fancy.

 

[tgh]

Manufactured stone is out selling granite by a large margin, why ?.. because it's easy to work and decent stonemasons are very rare… so everyone pushes the product.
We selected "our" granite from the stacks in the importers yard, and Imnsho.. it's a truly classy surface that I still admire after many years.
If we move and renovate , I will almost certainly use granite again , but will be very very very v………. careful who cuts and assembles it….

 

[anat0l]

First, why not get Mrs swanning_it to contribute (or take over?) the design effort? Unless you have a fair hand in using the kitchen as well which means you deserve to have a great deal of input into the design...

I can't remember which kind of stone or what not for the bench tops, but go for one that can handle high temperature and moist stuff on it, and you can also work on it. We have new stone benchtops in our home, but I wasn't responsible for selecting or putting them in. I don't know what they are made of, but my father tells me even though it looks like fantastic polished stone, it isn't completely impervious to high heat (e.g. take a hot roast tray out of the oven and put it straight on the stone without heat mats underneath). That's a shame, as I remember in Switzerland our table was made of such a stone, so it was fantastic when taking trays out of the oven or pots off the stove.

A workable stone benchtop also makes it fantastic for a large work space, e.g. flouring for making pastry, pasta, bread or other doughs, or simply when a cutting board just won't, well, cut it.

If you go for drawers, I don't know about the others here, but make sure they are reinforced pretty well. We have drawers in our kitchen for pots, pans, casserole dishes and another absolutely full of plasticware of all kinds, but one thing we have found it is too easy to "overload" them and then they start to stress quite a bit on the guide rails, especially when the drawers are pulled out (viz. when the risk of structural failure is the greatest).

Stainless steel backdrops on the stove are a must, or any other easy-to-clean surface. If fat or big boiling bubbling pots (or pans, e.g. when reducing sauces) are involved, it pays to think of the potential mess range and how to clean it up. Additional to this is, say, deep frying and thinking about where the smoke goes, what might start to get "infused" with the oil/burning smell, etc.. Additional considerations come to mind if you are using gas cooktops rather than electric or induction.

As for all the Tuppaware... it might help to organise it (maybe a job for the +1) in terms of them most frequently used of those wares, and purpose. It might help you then to set aside a drawer for the most common stuff or what might be useful to have easily on hand. On the other hand, if there really is no system, then maybe a couple of deep drawers might be the go if a cupboard sounds like bad idea, but think of all the stresses going on those drawers as one keeps fishing through it to find the right piece of plastic, or when the washed and dried wares go back into the drawers in perfect Russian doll manner (my assumption). All else I can think of is... maybe the world's smallest walk in pantry/cupboard for Tuppaware?

 

[blackcat20]

Tupperware- we (OCD ex, I'm as bad/worse) went with decor and Pyrex. 3 sizes of each only, and made sure we had nothing else. The 3 decor sizes have the same lid and shape so that they are all interchangeable and all stack together. It takes up no room.

Can't imagine putting my pans etc into drawers. Everything is Le Creuset cast iron and weighs a tonne. Check to make sure the drawers won't be dysfunctional if you chuck too much weight in them.

We use drawers for our pots and pans, however, the Le Creuset goes in the pantry. We have a massive double-door pantry that goes floor to ceiling. Bottom third is two cupboards; one has a shelf and the other is drawers so you can see what tins etc you have. Food goes on the bottom two shelves of the panty; they are very deep so stuff can get "lost" at the back. Upper shelves are used for cookware, bakeware, platters etc.

As for the sink, I dont understand the lack of draining area in new kitchens. Not everything does, or can, go in the dishwasher, and these need somewhere to drain that isnt just on the bench.

 

[anat0l]

As for the sink, I dont understand the lack of draining area in new kitchens. Not everything does, or can, go in the dishwasher, and these need somewhere to drain that isnt just on the bench.

One reason might be that people (I find mainly anglophones, though happy to be proven otherwise) tend to dry and put away things they wash straight away, if it doesn't go into a dishwasher.

That said, I've still seen many sinks with a draining area. Some may just stack things in the second sink to dry off (most setups these days consist of two sinks).

Some will just appropriate the bench space where a draining area will be to drain stuff anyway, e.g. by getting a draining rack. The problem is that you then need to put a cloth under or around the rack so water doesn't flow off the bench and onto the kitchen floor.

 

[blackcat20]

Some will just appropriate the bench space where a draining area will be to drain stuff anyway, e.g. by getting a draining rack. The problem is that you then need to put a cloth under or around the rack so water doesn't flow off the bench and onto the kitchen floor.

Exactly why I find it a useless design. I was stuff and it sits in the dish rack till I'm done washing. Excess water drains off so its easier to dry with a tea towel.

 

[RooFlyer]

<snip>

As for the sink, I dont understand the lack of draining area in new kitchens. Not everything does, or can, go in the dishwasher, and these need somewhere to drain that isnt just on the bench.

You can get natural stone or synthetic composite bench tops with grooves cut in to drain down into the sink, a la the stainless steel ones. Costs more, of course. Otherwise one can just put a tea towel under the rack you put the stuff in to drip dry.

And as for granite bench tops, nothing beats Norwegian Blue Pearl or, more technically ('cause I can ) larvikite .

Composites are popular when one wants a 'whiter-than-white' kitchen.

 

[vetrade]

Here's my 2 cents worth..............
Make sure everything will work in practice by researching all requirements yourselves before going anywhere near a kitchen company. IME some try to make you fit their designs rather than vice versa. If there's some feature you particularly want be insistent or go to another company. Good ones can create virtually anything you want.

Make a list of what is required to fit everything - even measure cereal packets to make sure the gaps between shelves in the pantry are high enough.
My recommendations:
Have all cabinetry covered in one of the quality laminates for ease of cleaning etc
Make sure the hinges, drawer rails etc are better quality
Have all drawers - the only cupboards we have are some overhead ones which open vertically - no bumping your head when you forget to look!. These are shallow (they have false backs) to ensure that access to them is easy. Don't have any overhead cupboards higher than you can reach - avoid the need for a stool etc.
Under bench draws 2 x 30cm deep and the one directly under the benchtop 20 cm deep. Widths can be anything from 40cm - 70cm - all self closing.
Having the top drawers 20 cmm deep seems to be ideal - you can fit microwave containers, tea towels, glad wrap etc. Any deeper and it's too easy to stack things on top of others - which you should avoid at all costs.
Same with pots, casserole dishes etc - don't stack them - one layer of items per drawer.
20 cm deep drawers are also ideal for storing plates, coffee cups, even most glasses and cutlery. Have several drawers for bigger implements such as tongs, potato mashers etc, bigger knives etc - never have too much in any single drawer so you can find what you want easily.
Have a sink - preferably a double bowl one - which is very big. We have 2 sinks and one is a commercial cafe type (you won't find one in a standard domestic catalogue) which is big enough to wash baking dishes etc. Most sinks are a PITA to fit these bigger items and avoid the tap spout getting in the way.
Have your microwave built-in - but be sure you select one with standard dimensions in case you want to fit a new one into the same space in future. We also have a standard oven and a steam oven - but even though the steam oven does gook veges etc exceptionally well, we virtually never use it - microwave is too easy.
Most cooktops fit into a 600mm deep benchtop but that usually requires that the rear edge is about 5 -6 cm from the wall behind. In that scenario splashes on the wall behind are inevitable. Much better is to have the cooktop set into an island bench so that there is a good clear space all around which is much easier to clean up and spashes.
Re cooktops - a lot of gas ones are fiddly to clean - crud gets around the base of the buttons etc. Also many have burners which are too close together to enable use on more than one at a time. The ideal (depending on bench length constraints) are the ones with burners aligned widthways i.e. no burner has another one behind it. Depending on whether you prefer cooking with gas or electricity the other alternative is an induction or standard electric affair.
Have as much bench space as you can - you can never have too much.
Avoid a corner pantry if you can - they waste a lot of space and the entry door often needs to be a little narrow to accommodate the width of the shelves - much better to have a wide one with shelves only along the rear wall. Watch where your lighting is so that the bottom shelves aren't obscured by shadows.
I prefer real stone (granite / definitely not marble which isn't impervious to staining unless regularly re-sealed)
Store all containers with their lids attached - definitely don't have them separate - you will never find the lid you need if it's not attached
Re window heights - I like the streamlined look of having the kitchen window down to bench height but I hate the ones which are not high enough to see straight out of when you are standing - I think the top should be a minimum of 6'6" (1950MM) above the floor.
I like the look of having a fridge recess rater than just having it in the open at the end of a bench etc. But you don't want a big gap above the fridge - measure it up and I suggest about a 70mm gap above and at the sides - this just looks more finishes and bespoke. We have vertically opening cupboards above our fridge for cookbooks and meds.

Edit: I think I could fill a book with suggestions
Work out exactly where you want power points and have doubles at each place. Don't forget where you want to have your phone connection if you have a landline.
If you have space a butler's pantry is excellent - with a bench and sink for messy food prep.
Never use either flat or gloss wall paint - always go for low sheen
If having tiles on the floor use large ones (600 x 600). harder to lay but gee they look better. Alternatively timber can look great too.
Consider an interior designer for colours etc - we used one (cost $300 for a couple of hours) and although I knew pretty much waht we wanted before we got her in she was great with suggestions of matching floor colour with cupboards and benchtop colours and, importantly, what colours to avoid. In one spot beside a window where we were going to have short benchtop she recommended a bench height trolley which we now use all the time - can load it up with plates etc to take outside to our outdoor dining area / BBQ. I had it made in SS with a granite top to batch the rest.
Don't forget to create a spot for your rubbish & recycle bins.

 

[vetrade]

And as for granite bench tops, nothing beats Norwegian Blue Pearl or, more technically ('cause I can ) larvikite .

Composites are popular when one wants a 'whiter-than-white' kitchen.

We have blue pearl granite benchtops and they are fabulous - don't know whether it's "Norwegian" though. At night it catches the light reflections fantastically.

 

[lovetravellingoz]

As for the sink, I dont understand the lack of draining area in new kitchens. Not everything does, or can, go in the dishwasher, and these need somewhere to drain that isnt just on the bench.

Eaxctly. I am a fan of cast iron frypans and you have to handwash them. As they are better and healthier "non-stick" than teflon etc they are great to cook with. I wash them when still hot and so cleaning is easy. But they still go on the drainer.

Ditto for some old fine china we have, timber utensils and chopping boards etc.

 

[Deleted member 29185]

Some really great suggestions here and I'm amazed that many reflect my ideas as well (anat0l, getting Lisa involved in the design would be a disaster , last things I left to her discretion were a revamp of some bedroom side tables and she ended up with an horrendous French provincial look, regardless of the fact absolutely nothing in our house even slightly resembles French provincial but it genuinely looked like it needed a damn good scrub......they've since been donated to a less fortunate family, and one we obviously didn't like :shock.

I would only have granite. I actually don't like that imitation stuff as it looks too manufactured. I love the imperfections of real granite and funny some here have suggested Norwegian Blue Pearl, as our dining table is exactly that and everyone comments on how great it looks. It is double pencil radius, flowing scallop design with a genuine 30mm slab, (not just an edging 30mm) and has a matching base. It takes 6 strong men to lift it. The dining room is separate but adjacent the kitchen, so it could tie in.....but I sort of had that earmarked to relocate to take a particular art work that I love but haven't purchased (I seem to have a ball and chain tied to a kitchen rather than a one-of-a-kind Shona stone carving).

The butlers pantry also hit the mark. We have one on the plan (well a 2m x 3m scullery), but my daughter (the architecture student) is trying to talk us out of it and open it up as a study nook! Lisa sort of likes the idea, but I don't. We already have an office, a library and a homework room so the last thing we need is another "nook", but I do like the idea of having like an old style idea with the kitchen table in the kitchen (the kitchen area is 4m x 8.5m with the scullery additional to that) as the old style kitchen table from my boyhood memories did seem to work exceptionally well as a place to sit, to talk, to eat, to drop mail and cough etc etc.

The fridge space is already recessed (deep fridge) so it's basically flush with the cupboards and the windows idea of being shorter than I'd like, is also basically "modern architecture" which although sometimes looking good, often loses practicality. I personally like standard (sort of) window height of 2100 off the floor, and dropping right down onto the benches, but I was just concerned about keeping the windows clean as I'm not a fan of unnecessary work! (In fact I'm not a fan of work, full stop!)

Due to the structural beams above, the ceiling could either be a flush job at 2400 or a bulkhead style around the outside at 2400 with raised coffer at about 2600, which could give some pretty neat lighting options (bulkhead downlights around the perimeter and hidden led coffer lighting in the middle). I think the swanning_it family does definitely need draining areas beside the sinks as (red face) anything washed by hand, often sits on the drainer until next use or until one of us is feeling so bored we decide to put them away!

I'm loving the suggestions.....thanks for taking the time.

 

[Pushka]

Love my black granite bench tops. Make sure they aren't the type that absorbs water. Like some we had in a holiday rental.
We use drawers for pots and pans except the cast iron ones. We have a corner unit where there is an internal swing out steel metal caddy to improve access. We also have a steel metal pull out set of drawers in the pantry.
Check out Howard's world and IKEA for clever storage ideas. Use protective mats and protective pads (the small round adhesive dots) on 'bumping surfaces' before they bump and cause dents or scratches. White doesn't show the smudges much at all. Our sinks are in laid. I don't like the draining board style of sinks. Creates other issues but my dislike is enough to counter that. Get a good quality tap fitting and maybe one you don't have to use your hands (sometimes food dirty) but can move up with an arm (like a lever). We have white laminate fixtures and large white tiles offset with a small chrome insert. Breaks up all the white.

 

[vetrade]

swanning_it, cleaning the window if it goes right down to bench height is a breeze. We have a 2.7m wide window which is flush with the benchtop. I can clean it in less than 2 minutes using a Karcher window cleaner - got it from Bunnings for about $120 (IIRC). It's a small portable rechargeable unit which just vacuums the glass after you wipe it over with detergent using the spray bottle that comes with it. I saw our cleaner using one to clean the bathroom mirrors and the results were so good I went out the next day and bought one. Gives a surprisingly good, streak-free finish.

 

[jb747]

Glass splash backs are easy to keep clean. Windows are too, but flyscreens can be an issue. Slumped glass is a harder to clean (but still rather nice).

Granite...had that, but went for a manufactured stone in our last build, and happy with the choice.

Self closing drawers. The only traditional cupboard is under the sink.

We removed the walk in pantry from our last build, and used full height pantry cupboards (containing self closing drawers), and again happy with this.

I too find kitchen designs without draining areas to be strange, and perhaps a case of style over function.

I despise Tupperware. I move it to a space that is out of reasonable reach, and if it's still there after a month or two, ditch it.

The vast majority of range hoods are utterly useless, and couldn't suck the air out of an inflated balloon. It made little difference if they were cheap or expensive, fancy name or not. We tracked down one from a company that mostly does commercial kitchens...and if you stand too close, you'll end up outside. But, even so, it's still very quiet.