New aviation industry ombudsman in Australia

I think the issue is the mandatory definition of ‘within the airlines control’
It may be in the current charter but what the airline things is within their control is not always according to the customer interpretation.
Communication is also fairly poor in this regard.
VA spells out what is ‘within’ their control:

  • Crew shortages;
  • Unscheduled aircraft maintenance or other engineering issues;
  • Malfunction of Virgin Australia IT infrastructure (other than malicious attacks);
  • An aircraft has been overbooked;
  • You are denied boarding (either voluntarily or involuntarily) for reasons other than your conduct on your day of travel;
  • You miss your connecting Virgin Australia flight because we delayed or cancelled a flight for one of the above reasons; or
  • We decide to stop operating services on a specific route for commercial reasons.
It also states examples of what are outside their control, including dangerous weather, ATC staff shortages and medical emergencies.

I am surprised VA considers ‘unscheduled maintenance’ to be within its control!
 
I think these situations are covered, currently. JQ and QF have charters and/or set levels of compensation, including hotels and transfers in the event a flight is cancelled within the airline’s controls.
I would argue that these charters are a step back in terms of consumer rights. By setting fixed amounts for things like hotels and meals they are doing consumers a great disservice. After all, when was the last time you could find a hotel in Sydney for $200/night booking the night of a cancellation? Rarely! Indeed, most air passenger regulations either do not state an amount (i.e. APPR or EU261) other than to say they must reimburse passengers for these items or they set a wildly high limit (i.e. $10,000 CAD in the case of the Montreal Convention). Indeed, it is sad to see that consumers have more rights flying out of Australia than flying within Australia.
 
I guess it depends on your definition of maintenance. Is a bust tyre on landing unscheduled maintenance?

What are their contingencies?

While the initial unservicability is not necessarily within their control (though that could depend on the issue), their service recovery is absolutely in their control. If QF has spare aircraft and VA doesn’t, why should a pax on VA suffer because VA didn’t want to plan for contingencies? Same if it takes 3 days to fix because they don’t have enough staff on, why is that the pax’s problem?
 
VA spells out what is ‘within’ their control:

  • Crew shortages;
  • Unscheduled aircraft maintenance or other engineering issues;
  • Malfunction of Virgin Australia IT infrastructure (other than malicious attacks);
  • An aircraft has been overbooked;
  • You are denied boarding (either voluntarily or involuntarily) for reasons other than your conduct on your day of travel;
  • You miss your connecting Virgin Australia flight because we delayed or cancelled a flight for one of the above reasons; or
  • We decide to stop operating services on a specific route for commercial reasons.
It also states examples of what are outside their control, including dangerous weather, ATC staff shortages and medical emergencies.

I am surprised VA considers ‘unscheduled maintenance’ to be within its control!
Someone take a screenshot of that! Whenever Australia finally gets air passenger rights, that'll be very useful in claiming reimbursement and entitlements, since generally speaking items within the control of airlines are subject entitlements!
 
What are their contingencies?

While the initial unservicability is not necessarily within their control (though that could depend on the issue), their service recovery is absolutely in their control. If QF has spare aircraft and VA doesn’t, why should a pax on VA suffer because VA didn’t want to plan for contingencies? Same if it takes 3 days to fix because they don’t have enough staff on, why is that the pax’s problem?
And that would be the EU/UK261 model. The canadian model would say an immediate safety issue arising on the day of travel is excluded from their scheme. Given the Aussie airlines are quite limiting in their definitions of ‘within’ and ‘outside’ of their control, I was surprised to see VA include ‘unscheduled’ maintenance. I assume it’s a type and they mean ‘scheduled’.

I agree unscheduled maintenance should be included in any scheme, for the reasons you point out. Just surprised VA states it too!
 
And that would be the EU/UK261 model. The canadian model would say an immediate safety issue arising on the day of travel is excluded from their scheme. Given the Aussie airlines are quite limiting in their definitions of ‘within’ and ‘outside’ of their control, I was surprised to see VA include ‘unscheduled’ maintenance. I assume it’s a type and they mean ‘scheduled’.

I agree unscheduled maintenance should be included in any scheme, for the reasons you point out. Just surprised VA states it too!

This is the QF text:

* Delays or cancellations within our control include: engineering issues, Qantas IT system outages, delayed delivery of baggage to the carousel due to resourcing issues, late cleaning/loading of catering to the aircraft, crew/staffing issues or any other circumstance which we can reasonably control.

^ Delays or cancellation outside our control include: weather events, air traffic control issues, industrial action by a third party, security issues or any other unusual or unforeseen circumstances which we cannot control and the consequences of which we could not have avoided.

They could make it easier, if it’s an issue that affects all flights it’s outside of their control. If it’s just that airline or that flight, it’s within.
 
IMG_4670.jpegVA spells out what is ‘within’ their control:

  • Crew shortages;
  • Unscheduled aircraft maintenance or other engineering issues;
  • Malfunction of Virgin Australia IT infrastructure (other than malicious attacks);
  • An aircraft has been overbooked;
  • You are denied boarding (either voluntarily or involuntarily) for reasons other than your conduct on your day of travel;
  • You miss your connecting Virgin Australia flight because we delayed or cancelled a flight for one of the above reasons; or
  • We decide to stop operating services on a specific route for commercial reasons.
It also states examples of what are outside their control, including dangerous weather, ATC staff shortages and medical emergencies.

I am surprised VA considers ‘unscheduled maintenance’ to be within its control!
I know all that
The issue all of these scenarios then include the typical onus then on the customer to chase up the remedy by contacting the call centre. Why? If its in your control you hand me my sheet of rights and the manned desk I go to address it there and then
 
I know all that
The issue all of these scenarios then include the typical onus then on the customer to chase up the remedy by contacting the call centre. Why? If its in your control you hand me my sheet of rights and the manned desk I go to address it there and then
Yes, but not even EU261 works in that way. Some people will have bought their tickets through travel agents, some direct, others will have complex itineraries. I don’t see how it would work ‘on the spot’?
 
Yes, but not even EU261 works in that way. Some people will have bought their tickets through travel agents, some direct, others will have complex itineraries. I don’t see how it would work ‘on the spot’?
I think the airlines capacity to address these issues in an appropriate service oriented way is whats lacking.
They may not fix it ‘on the spot’ but the passenger is waiting to go somewhere they no longer can. A resolution based on appropriate information is required now for the customer to know what to do next.
A blanket ‘ring the call centre’ (usually) overseas is IMHO not good enough. Its this on the ground non-service that ruins the airline’s brand. It is noted the ombudsman identifies communications with the customer must be made of any delays/why and what to do next.
We shall see.
 
I think the issue is the mandatory definition of ‘within the airlines control’
It may be in the current charter but what the airline things is within their control is not always according to the customer interpretation.
Communication is also fairly poor in this regard.
True, but I think the EU and US schemes can provide strong guidance on this particular issue and can be codified pretty easily.
 
I guess it depends on your definition of maintenance. Is a bust tyre on landing unscheduled maintenance?
Generally under the EU261 scheme almost all unscheduled maintenance is deemed within the control of the airline and thus eligible for meals, hotels and the monetary entitlement. And I use the word entitlement when it comes to delays because it is technically not compensation. For it to be considered compensation legally, you would have to make an argument about how much each traveller's time is worth (i.e. a lawyer delayed by an hour has "lost" more than a student or starving artist). Here they're just saying it's something you get from the airline irrespective of how much or even whether it was a hassle for you. Indeed, I have enjoyed some delays yet received the 600 Euros entitlement under EU261.
And that would be the EU/UK261 model. The canadian model would say an immediate safety issue arising on the day of travel is excluded from their scheme.
Yes this is one of the flaws of that law. Hopefully in the coming years that gets addressed to make it more in line with European rules. Keep in mind in Europe there have been instances where crew have literally died moments before a flight was scheduled to depart and European courts have all ruled it's not an extraordinary circumstance and thus the full entitlement under EU261 plus reimbursement for meals and hotels are necessary.
Given the Aussie airlines are quite limiting in their definitions of ‘within’ and ‘outside’ of their control, I was surprised to see VA include ‘unscheduled’ maintenance. I assume it’s a type and they mean ‘scheduled’.
What no one (to my knowledge at least) has talked about with regards to the European law, is that irrespective of the cause, the airlines always must provide a duty of care. What this means is that even if there's a thunderstorm and it's raining like hell outside, and thus completely outside the control of the airline, the airline must still offer a duty of care, meaning meals and hotel. With Qantas, if you encounter a delay due to a weather issue, you're on your own, out of pocket. Indeed, when a thunderstorm passed through Brisbane cancelling my flight (the last one of the day to Sydney), I had to pay out of pocket for my hotel with Qantas only willing to reimburse a small fraction of the astronomical price. Had this been the EU, that hotel would've been paid for by them in full, no questions asked.

I know all that
The issue all of these scenarios then include the typical onus then on the customer to chase up the remedy by contacting the call centre. Why? If its in your control you hand me my sheet of rights and the manned desk I go to address it there and then
Technically, under the European Rules there is no requirement to hand you your rights on a piece of paper. If that was law, it would be nearly impossible to enforce in any way since every airport in the world and any flight in the world could potentially be subject to these rules. To give you an example, I was flying from Frankfurt back to Sydney, connecting in Helsinki and Singapore. I get all the way to Singapore only to find my final flight with Qantas got delayed by 14 hours due to crew. In all the communication I received from Qantas and on the ground in Singapore, I wasn't told what my rights were under EU261. Indeed, Qantas sent me an erroneous email stating there were limits on how much I could spend on meals and hotels (which is a lie since EU261 says you just pay for it). I was actually even more surprised that for international flights like these they would suggest such limits, it's really cute of them, since again under Montreal Convention, they're on the hook for about $10,000 CAD in damages, which would cover just about any flight and hotel you want.

In any event, I got home, and the first thing I did was apply for EU261 plus reimbursement for the hotel and ground transfer (meals were included at the Accor property I was staying at).
True, but I think the EU and US schemes can provide strong guidance on this particular issue and can be codified pretty easily.
The US scheme is very light on details. For instance, there are no rules in the US requiring airlines to rebook you on the next flight, to provide monetary compensation or hotels. Yes, airlines were required to stipulate what they will offer customers and it's even available on a nice dashboard where you can compare the airlines and their policies, but that's it. There's no codified rules that if this then that as is the case in Canada or Europe. The one thing the US does well though is overbooking and involuntary denied boarding which is formulaic and strictly enforced with the airline being forced to pay out the monies at the airport.
Without an EU261 type of law, anything is just hot air.
Correct. Unless there are actually actionable items, it's all rhetoric. The EU and to some extent the Canadian laws spell out exactly what the airline must do. For instance, under the Canadian rules if a major airline (that is an airline that transported over 2 million passengers per year) cancels a flight, they must rebook you on another flight or refund your money in full, passenger's choice. Rebooking depends on the cause of the disruption, if it is deemed within the control of the airline (i.e. everything from unscheduled maintenance to crew) they must rebook you on their own flight departing within 9 hours of when you were supposed to depart or failing that they must rebook you on the next flight operated by any airline. And when they say next flight they mean it. So if the next flight only has seats in business class they must rebook you into that free of charge and simply eat the costs. Plus they must provide meals and hotel (if an overnight stay is required). For things outside their control like weather or strikes, it's 48 hours instead of 9 hours and no hotel or meals are required (a weak point in the law).

-RooFlyer88
 
Generally under the EU261 scheme almost all unscheduled maintenance is deemed within the control of the airline and thus eligible for meals, hotels and the monetary entitlement. And I use the word entitlement when it comes to delays because it is technically not compensation. For it to be considered compensation legally, you would have to make an argument about how much each traveller's time is worth (i.e. a lawyer delayed by an hour has "lost" more than a student or starving artist). Here they're just saying it's something you get from the airline irrespective of how much or even whether it was a hassle for you. Indeed, I have enjoyed some delays yet received the 600 Euros entitlement under EU261.

Yes this is one of the flaws of that law. Hopefully in the coming years that gets addressed to make it more in line with European rules. Keep in mind in Europe there have been instances where crew have literally died moments before a flight was scheduled to depart and European courts have all ruled it's not an extraordinary circumstance and thus the full entitlement under EU261 plus reimbursement for meals and hotels are necessary.

What no one (to my knowledge at least) has talked about with regards to the European law, is that irrespective of the cause, the airlines always must provide a duty of care. What this means is that even if there's a thunderstorm and it's raining like hell outside, and thus completely outside the control of the airline, the airline must still offer a duty of care, meaning meals and hotel. With Qantas, if you encounter a delay due to a weather issue, you're on your own, out of pocket. Indeed, when a thunderstorm passed through Brisbane cancelling my flight (the last one of the day to Sydney), I had to pay out of pocket for my hotel with Qantas only willing to reimburse a small fraction of the astronomical price. Had this been the EU, that hotel would've been paid for by them in full, no questions asked.


Technically, under the European Rules there is no requirement to hand you your rights on a piece of paper. If that was law, it would be nearly impossible to enforce in any way since every airport in the world and any flight in the world could potentially be subject to these rules. To give you an example, I was flying from Frankfurt back to Sydney, connecting in Helsinki and Singapore. I get all the way to Singapore only to find my final flight with Qantas got delayed by 14 hours due to crew. In all the communication I received from Qantas and on the ground in Singapore, I wasn't told what my rights were under EU261. Indeed, Qantas sent me an erroneous email stating there were limits on how much I could spend on meals and hotels (which is a lie since EU261 says you just pay for it). I was actually even more surprised that for international flights like these they would suggest such limits, it's really cute of them, since again under Montreal Convention, they're on the hook for about $10,000 CAD in damages, which would cover just about any flight and hotel you want.



-RooFlyer88
EU261 and UK261 are legal compensation schemes. Dunno about your definition otherwise.

Airlines are required to display EU261 rights.

I think the duty of care in circumstances such as bad weather are a step too far.
 
Unfortunately its the legalistic lens adopted by the airlines (eg bundles of rights) that conflates compensation with customer care such that the latter is where we feel let down.

It shows they don’t really get it.

The tired stranded passenger cares not - at the time - about interpretations whether or not the airline is liable (or not). Its how it is handled on the ground.

I think the ombud can focus more on these practical concerns and their communications.

A boat charter that takes you to the middle of the Great Barrier Reef and cannot get you back due to a hurricane still has to communicate how the customers will get to shore (even if not their fault).
 
Unfortunately its the legalistic lens adopted by the airlines (eg bundles of rights) that conflates compensation with customer care such that the latter is where we feel let down.

It shows they don’t really get it.

The tired stranded passenger cares not - at the time - about interpretations whether or not the airline is liable (or not). Its how it is handled on the ground.

I think the ombud can focus more on these practical concerns and their communications.

A boat charter that takes you to the middle of the Great Barrier Reef and cannot get you back due to a hurricane still has to communicate how the customers will get to shore (even if not their fault).
Agree. And it’s something we used to have at aussie airports, until they started taking away staff!

In the US for example the gate and lounge agents can work wonders to reaccommodate you and get you on your way. To some extent they can still do that in the lounge here - at least they do in the VA lounge. Qantas is good too, if you’re at the checkin counter when problems occur. But other pax are now told to go online or contact the call centre.

But that’s not much different to BA. Try getting through to customer service there :(
 
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Agree. And it’s something we used to have at aussie airports, until they started taking away staff!

In the US for example the gate and lounge agents can work wonders to reaccommodate you and get you on your way. To some extent they can still do that in the lounge here - at least they do in the VA lounge. Qantas is good too, if you’re at the checkin counter when problems occur. But other pax are now told to go online or contact the call centre.

But that’s not much different to BA. Try getting through to customer service there :(
Yes

I make decisions on air travel (which I now consider is a Caveat Emptor service) with layers of contingency

Wouldn’t mind if it was advertised as such without the puffery of ‘service’ and choirs singing in the outback.

Customer service 101 adage of each touch point is a reflection/responsibility of your company has become irrelevant
 
I think these situations are covered, currently. JQ and QF have charters and/or set levels of compensation, including hotels and transfers in the event a flight is cancelled within the airline’s controls.

So likely little change, other than the ombudsman will be able to perhaps arbitrate?

For matters outside an airline’s control, going to be same same it seems.
It's all well and good to have charters etc., but affected travelers need to be able to invoke them. e.g. see here:


Aside from that, some of the basic things that need to happen are for airline to publicly and clearly document specific definitions in their T&C's.

For example "Significant Change" with Jetstar (JQ or 3K) is defined as "3 hours or more to you schedule departure time", but is not specifically defined for Jetstar Japan (GK).
 

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