OWA reward itinerary - QF responsibility when other carrier cancels a leg?

[smckay]

I don’t think this has been covered in the definitive thread, but happy to be moderated out..

We have a J OWE reward trip booked, using QF then AY SYD- xPVD-xHELS-AMS.
Finnair changed their flights to not include the day we were flying. Day before, day after fine. QF had no rewards seats day before or the day after. Long story short, after 3.5 hours on the phone to Hobart we managed to get seats SYD-HND and then QF asked AY to give us 2 seats HND-HELS, which they did.
So, all is on order again but I got thinking; what is QF responsibility to assist? The T&C state;
14.9.4 If a Classic Flight Reward is cancelled by the airline and reasonable alternative travel cannot be arranged, as determined by Qantas acting reasonably, Qantas Loyalty will waive the Cancellation Refund Fee on any Classic Flight Reward submitted for refund and will re-credit the applicable number of Qantas Points.

Our last OWE was to Norway via Japan, and was messed up due to Japan closing their borders. On that occasion QF stuck us on QF1 and put us on a BA flight LHR-OSL. Easy, fast and no hassle.
This last booking I had the lady start to make comments that I needed to select a flight soon as she couldn’t be on the phone all day. Annoying, I book and pay for a J RTW and now you expect me to sit in Y for the longest leg? Along with me basically finding potential seats for a WP release (all denied. Sigh)
Whats been peoples experience of alternate flights offered due to a rewards leg being cancelled? What is Qantas acting reasonably comprise?

 

[madrooster]

The carrier that causes the schedule change is responsible for offering an appropriate alternative. In this case you were lucky QF were able to meet in the middle and offer you SYD-HND and AY was able to offer HND-HEL.

Here is a recent example of a not so easy scenario:

AY cancelled the SEA-HEL route completely for northern summer a few months ago. Pax were automatically booked onto ORD-HEL and DFW-HEL, but for those with redemption bookings ticketed by another carrier, suddenly you now have to get to ORD or DFW.

If AA/AS happens to have redemption seats available for SEA-ORD/DFW, then great, it's an easy fix. However, if AA/AS has no suitable redemption seats to get from SEA to ORD/DFW, AA/AS are not obligated at all to open inventory for an AY-caused schedule change. If that is the case, then you can either take a refund of the redemption, or accept the ORD/DFW-HEL and find your own way to ORD/DFW to meet the AY flight.

 

[aikman]

Whats been peoples experience of alternate flights offered due to a rewards leg being cancelled?

Japan Airlines cancelled my flight. Qantas and I couldn't find any other reward flights around that time so the only thing they offered me was a points refund.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Per the Qantas terms and conditions, the contract of carriage for the relevant operating airline apply.

Most, if not all CoC provide options in the event of disruption. They offer you an alternative, or a refund if the alternatives are not suitable.

An award seat is no different, They are not bound by award availability in the event of a schedule change or cancellation.

It gets slightly more complicated where you have a third party booking agent… whether it’s a travel agent, or, in this case, Qantas.

With a third party, the passenger can’t usually speak directly to the airline, and the agent must do it on your behalf.

Qantas should therefore take up the case, and find alternative seats with the operating airline. Reward seats aren’t a requirement.

But it’s not always that easy if the agent/airline rep doesn’t know what to do, The Oneworld assistance desk exists for this purpose… in this case qantas either calls the operating airline or the oneworld desk and it gets resolved. in theory

 

[djkelly69]

I think you mean OWA rather than OWE. OWE is usually used to mean OneWorld Emerald status.

You might get more knowledgeable eyes viewing the thread with OWA in the title.

 

[aikman]

I was racking my brain trying to work out what OP meant by xPUD. It only just hit me that it is PVG.

 

[smckay]

I was racking my brain trying to work out what OP meant by xPUD. It only just hit me that it is PVG.

Oooppssss. Fat fingers on a ipad. Edited and fixed

 

[smckay]

Thanks all. QF did step up and get us in seats so I ought to be happy, which I am.
Was just doing a what if? moment

 

[tdimdad]

The question is a good one, thanks for raising it!

I'd like to return back to @madrooster's comment. Would in that case AY have been on hook to also organise the SEA-ORD/DFW connection? I.e. to transport the pax between SEA-HEL. Whether it means AA/AS releasing award seats or AY buying revenue seats for their pax should be immaterial.

 

[downtheback]

AY cancelled the SEA-HEL route completely for northern summer a few months ago. Pax were automatically booked onto ORD-HEL and DFW-HEL, but for those with redemption bookings ticketed by another carrier, suddenly you now have to get to ORD or DFW.

In this scenario, one could argue that you booked with AY from SEA-HEL and therefore, they are responsible for finding you the connecting flight between SEA-xx_ to connect to xx_-HEL. If an award flight cannot be found, then it should be a cash seat paid for by them. No different to anyone who paid to fly SEA-HEL with cash and the airline gives them re-routing options.

 

[smckay]

In this scenario, one could argue that you booked with AY from SEA-HEL and therefore, they are responsible for finding you the connecting flight between SEA-xx_ to connect to xx_-HEL. If an award flight cannot be found, then it should be a cash seat paid for by them. No different to anyone who paid to fly SEA-HEL with cash and the airline gives them re-routing options.

Which is sort of my line of enquiry. When AY changed the PVD-HEL flight, no QF reward flight lined up, even with WP release requests. I was offered an economy reward option but being Extremely Important to Myself I wanted my J seats back.
And there I suppose is the catch - despite the original booking being J and paying the J points, now I’m in the back.
The call centre lady started showing her impatience which didn’t help and she wasn’t really assisting.
Maybe I was spoilt for the previous OWA where QF gave me 2 J seats off the bat.

 

[madrooster]

The question is a good one, thanks for raising it!

I'd like to return back to @madrooster's comment. Would in that case AY have been on hook to also organise the SEA-ORD/DFW connection? I.e. to transport the pax between SEA-HEL. Whether it means AA/AS releasing award seats or AY buying revenue seats for their pax should be immaterial.

In practice, you would be referred back to the ticketing carrier, in this case QF. AA/AS won't release seats for a schedule change caused by another carrier as it is not on them to make good for AY's change. Good luck fighting AY to pay out for the SEA-ORD/DFW when they were not the ticketing carrier!

In this scenario, one could argue that you booked with AY from SEA-HEL and therefore, they are responsible for finding you the connecting flight between SEA-xx_ to connect to xx_-HEL. If an award flight cannot be found, then it should be a cash seat paid for by them. No different to anyone who paid to fly SEA-HEL with cash and the airline gives them re-routing options.

Where an alternative within the ticketing carrier's policy doesn't exist, they only have to offer you a full refund. QR as an example is notoriously difficult when it comes to schedule changes on partner carrier issued tickets where it is take it or leave it. QR basically don't care no matter how much you jump up and down / threaten legal action.

As a result, it is easier to pick and choose your carriers wisely on a redemption ticket to avoid these headaches in the first place...

 

[sevenfourtyseven]

Japan Airlines cancelled my flight. Qantas and I couldn't find any other reward flights around that time so the only thing they offered me was a points refund.

Encountered this last year with a rescheduled sector. In the end neither took responsibility and I had to find replacement options myself.

 

[renatts]

In practice, you would be referred back to the ticketing carrier, in this case QF. AA/AS won't release seats for a schedule change caused by another carrier as it is not on them to make good for AY's change. Good luck fighting AY to pay out for the SEA-ORD/DFW when they were not the ticketing carrier!



Where an alternative within the ticketing carrier's policy doesn't exist, they only have to offer you a full refund. QR as an example is notoriously difficult when it comes to schedule changes on partner carrier issued tickets where it is take it or leave it. QR basically don't care no matter how much you jump up and down / threaten legal action.

As a result, it is easier to pick and choose your carriers wisely on a redemption ticket to avoid these headaches in the first place...

In this specific case with AY wouldn’t EU261 apply? European airline flying into Europe.

 

[kangarooflyer88]

So, all is on order again but I got thinking; what is QF responsibility to assist? The T&C state;
14.9.4 If a Classic Flight Reward is cancelled by the airline and reasonable alternative travel cannot be arranged, as determined by Qantas acting reasonably, Qantas Loyalty will waive the Cancellation Refund Fee on any Classic Flight Reward submitted for refund and will re-credit the applicable number of Qantas Points.

Their T&Cs have no bearing at least on international travel as the Montreal Convention supersedes any terms that may apply. In the event an airline cancels a flight it is on the airline originally operating the flight and the carrier marketing the flight to get you on an alternate flight. They cannot willy nilly cancel and refund your ticket despite what their terms say. If they do, you can collect up to $7000 USD in reimbursement for any out of pocket expenses incurred due to it. Additionally, the laws of the country you are travelling to/from may apply (namely EU261 for Europe and APPR for Canada) which provide cash compensation plus additional reimbursement.

-RooFlyer88

 

[madrooster]

In this specific case with AY wouldn’t EU261 apply? European airline flying into Europe.

For compensation purposes, only if the cancellation happens at < 14 days before departure. Generally such a cancellation would occur >2 months out (schedule firming), or < 2 days out (disruption). It's uncommon for airlines to cancel flights in that 2 days-2 months out period.

Furthermore, IATA rules stipulate that when it is a schedule change (defined as any time change or cancellation occurring > 72 hours before travel), the ticketing carrier is responsible for managing the schedule change. The operating carrier has no right to just simply take over/take control of the QF ticket.

When it is within 72 hours of travel, then a time change/cancellation that occurs within that 72 hour window is defined as a disruption. The operating carrier would have been given control of the ticket coupon at 72 hours before departure and therefore they have the ability to reissue the coupon to whatever they like.

Even in a scenario where AY might be willing to pay for the SEA-DFW/ORD, they would need to take over the affected coupon SEA-HEL and reissue that coupon to be SEA-ORD/DFW and ORD/DFW-HEL. But AY don't have control of that ticket coupon, until 72 hours before departure, so they can't.

Now you might be thinking well this is passenger unfriendly, why can't any carrier that is part of the ticket, reissue the ticket at any time? If this was allowed, tickets would be broken up quite quickly into multiple smaller tickets by the participating carriers on the ticket... and that's when it gets incredibly messy. You would start to lose things like being protected on the same ticket as a through journey amongst other issues.

For example, if you decided on the day due to a major delay you no longer want to travel, and the ticket coupon was taken over by another carrier at some point months ago, good luck getting a refund. It's almost impossible.

 

[antycbr]

For compensation purposes, only if the cancellation happens at < 14 days before departure. Generally such a cancellation would occur >2 months out (schedule firming), or < 2 days out (disruption). It's uncommon for airlines to cancel flights in that 2 days-2 months out period.

Furthermore, IATA rules stipulate that when it is a schedule change (defined as any time change or cancellation occurring > 72 hours before travel), the ticketing carrier is responsible for managing the schedule change. The operating carrier has no right to just simply take over/take control of the QF ticket.

When it is within 72 hours of travel, then a time change/cancellation that occurs within that 72 hour window is defined as a disruption. The operating carrier would have been given control of the ticket coupon at 72 hours before departure and therefore they have the ability to reissue the coupon to whatever they like.

Even in a scenario where AY might be willing to pay for the SEA-DFW/ORD, they would need to take over the affected coupon SEA-HEL and reissue that coupon to be SEA-ORD/DFW and ORD/DFW-HEL. But AY don't have control of that ticket coupon, until 72 hours before departure, so they can't.

Now you might be thinking well this is passenger unfriendly, why can't any carrier that is part of the ticket, reissue the ticket at any time? If this was allowed, tickets would be broken up quite quickly into multiple smaller tickets by the participating carriers on the ticket... and that's when it gets incredibly messy. You would start to lose things like being protected on the same ticket as a through journey amongst other issues.

For example, if you decided on the day due to a major delay you no longer want to travel, and the ticket coupon was taken over by another carrier at some point months ago, good luck getting a refund. It's almost impossible.

This all makes sense and reflects the historic set up of dealing with bricks and mortar travel agents where sked changes are queued back to the agent to resolve on behalf of the customer with the ticketing carrier.

Unfortunately the system doesn't seem well designed when you have in effect an exceptionally difficult travel agent, that you can't contact other than through incompetent call centres. QF acting as agent for others is a nightmare, no matter what commercial (or redemption) reaccommodation policies the operating carrier might put in place. A competent agent would at least notice that your changed flights don't meet MCT for example - QF management of schedule changes on partners can end up with invalid or negative MCT in my personal experience and then the conversation becomes "well there's no award availability to fix it".

 

[tdimdad]

To summarise Madrooster's excellent explanation, with changes >72 hours in advance, we contact the ticketing carrier, and changes <=72 hours are handled by the operating carrier. In theory, at least...

 

[Pushka]

Our Qantas award flight on Qatar was cancelled as we were about to board. Qantas did all the rebooking of flights and were the ones to contact us next day with new details.

 

[madrooster]

This all makes sense and reflects the historic set up of dealing with bricks and mortar travel agents where sked changes are queued back to the agent to resolve on behalf of the customer with the ticketing carrier.

Unfortunately the system doesn't seem well designed when you have in effect an exceptionally difficult travel agent, that you can't contact other than through incompetent call centres. QF acting as agent for others is a nightmare, no matter what commercial (or redemption) reaccommodation policies the operating carrier might put in place. A competent agent would at least notice that your changed flights don't meet MCT for example - QF management of schedule changes on partners can end up with invalid or negative MCT in my personal experience and then the conversation becomes "well there's no award availability to fix it".

The 'historic' setup hasn't changed at all in that regard. This remains the case as of today.

Even on QF redemption bookings involving other carriers that I've done, I sort out the schedule change directly with the operating carrier within QF policy and then kick it to QF for ticket reissuing.

Unfortunately the general public experience with QF acting as "agent" for other carriers leaves a lot to be desired. QF is unfortunately not the only carrier that is a nightmare to deal with when it comes to redemption partner carrier schedule changes. I can tell you SQ and AA can be just as bad as far as redemption partner carrier schedule changes go. If anything I'd say AA at times can be actually far worse than QF.