Qantas arrrrgh...

[ozimax]

My daughter in law, her 4 month old baby and my 19yo daughter flew to Sydney yesterday to board QF flight to LAX. A late txt message from QF tells them flight is delayed by 6+ hours and pushed back to 9pm. USA connections all missed, though rebooked at a cost of almost $1000 AUD, plus a hotel night in LA. (Be extremely careful booking with AA).

QF offered no help with ongoing bookings, no hotel voucher for LA, nothing. I understand the need to consolidate low yield flights and preserve revenue, but there was precious little assistance from QF.

My questions are: Is this practice commonplace now? Have others on this forum experienced similar frustrations? Is this a sign of the times as far as QF is concerned?

Thankfully my family members are all happy at their LA hotel at present, awaiting a 6am flight tomorrow.

Ozi.

 

[Dave Noble]

That is the risk you take if you choose to make separate bookings rather than book a through ticket. If you had booked a ticket thru to the final destination in the USA, then Qantas would have rebooked your flights automatically and provided hotel accommodation if needed

I would check with your travel insurance policy to see whether these costs might be covered

Dave

 

[ozimax]

Point taken Dave, and understood. Thankfully my daughter in law has full insurance, not so my daughter (she has medical/hospital). She will have to wear the cost but it was not much more than it would have been for top cover, so it's really just an annoyance.

My point is that QF didn't offer any help to two young ladies and an infant, no rebooking on another earlier flight, no hotel voucher etc. As a former TN employee, when we mucked things up, it became our problem, not the customer's, because it WAS our problem. We caused it, we fixed it, whether it was an aircraft unserviceable or whether the flight was empty. Those days seem long gone.

 

[docjames]

Those days seem long gone.

Not seem, are.

Tough situation. Hopefully they're there now and enjoying their trip.

 

[ozimax]

Yeah, no problems, they're both pretty cruisy and the staff at LAX immigrations were excellent. I think they're going to enjoy the Michigan autumn landscape, colours etc.

Cheers.

 

[serfty]

Knowing the flight was going to be delayed, did anyone contact AA to advise them before departing Oz?

They can be very helpful in situations like this, especially if you contact AA in the USA rather than the Oz number using skype or similar.

Also, If on separate bookings, well before travel I contact Qantas and request "Information Segments" on the AA connecting flight be inserted into the PNR. (Qantas can even issue your AA BP's on check-in in Oz.)

 

[ozimax]

Knowing the flight was going to be delayed, did anyone contact AA to advise them before departing Oz?

Yes.

They can be very helpful in situations like this, especially if you contact AA in the USA rather than the Oz number using skype or similar.

Yes, they contacted AA in USA and in Australia. Several of us also tried booking some cheap flights on the internet engines but there was nothing available online at reasonable prices.

Also, If on separate bookings, well before travel I contact Qantas and request "Information Segments" on the AA connecting flight be inserted into the PNR. (Qantas can even issue your AA BP's on check-in in Oz.)

Very good advice. I often ring QF to add other-booked QF flight info but I haven't added information from other carriers. Will definitely implement this practice in the future.

Thanks for the input!

 

[Dave Noble]

My point is that QF didn't offer any help to two young ladies and an infant, no rebooking on another earlier flight, no hotel voucher etc. As a former TN employee, when we mucked things up, it became our problem, not the customer's, because it WAS our problem. We caused it, we fixed it, whether it was an aircraft unserviceable or whether the flight was empty. Those days seem long gone.

Then again , why should those that (likely) tried to get a cheaper price by booking separately get the same benefits as those that actually booked a through ticket. It was not Qantas's problem once Qantas had delivered the passengers to the destination which they had been paid to get them to

Adding information sectors from another booking does not create any obligation on QF

Dave

 

[ozimax]

Then again , why should those that (likely) tried to get a cheaper price by booking separately get the same benefits as those that actually booked a through ticket. It was not Qantas's problem once Qantas had delivered the passengers to the destination which they had been paid to get them to

If Qantas had delivered their paying/legally contracted customers to the destination on time, there would have been no problem. That's the problem. A sale is a two way contract. The customer performs their part of the sale when they purchase the ticket. From then on, it's the service providers' responsibility to fulfill the contract. Why not deliver them 3 months from tomorrow? Or next year? Better still, why not have the customer pay for the trip when they arrive at their destination. Now that's a thought!

Adding information sectors from another booking does not create any obligation on QF

Dave

Nobody said it did, but it still is a good idea.

 

[AussieTim]

Adding information sectors from another booking does not create any obligation on QF

It did help me, I had booked ADL-SYD-LAX on QF, and onwards with AeroMéxico. (Two tickets, with information sectors included on QF ticket).

When QF11 was delayed by 2.5 hours, my 3.5ish hour connection in Los Angeles was not looking too good. QF had automatically rebooked me on Mexicana that night.

Luckily, by virtue of upgrading to Business on QF (from PE) and running to the next terminal, then sweet-talking AeroMéxico to allow me to check-in with luggage 15 minutes before flight, I made my original booking... but it was very good of QF to rebook me automatically.

 

[mannej]

Ozimax, Time does not form part of the contract. Most T&C's state that the arrival time is not guaranteed so therefore Qantas had fulfilled their part of the contract.

The lesson in situations like this is to pay the little bit extra and get everything booked on the same ticket.

As for travel insurance, only some policies cover mechanical delays, and even those ones cover mech. delays over a certain time (i.e ~6 hrs).

 

[russianrob]

Qantas seem particularly hard nosed about this, these days.
Like the OP, I would be livid at their refusal to assist young ladies with a child in some way. As the Qantas staff morale has plummeted, seemingly, so has their attitude towards the very people who pay their wages.
Very recently my wife and child had the misfortune to be booked on QF 98 from HKG to BNE when the pilot called in sick just prior to boarding. They were provided with a hotel room and meal voucher eventually, but no allowance was made ( position wise for her travelling with a child) and she would have been left on the end of a line of 300 pax at midnight, without outside assistance.
Then qantas "discovered", after boarding everyone 10 hrs late, that the aircraft had problems (why wasn't the aircraft checked while it was sitting there waiting for a crew for 10 hrs?). After fixing those, it taxied out only to be turned back with more issues. Of course there was no position at the terminal now, so they had to stand off and wait on board for a bus. They were taken to the terminal given a coke and mars bar, and bused back on. Of course some of Qantas's Asian customers had gone missing, and by the time they were found the plane finally took off at 1300.
I am especially grateful that Qantas values its safety record, and would rather have my family delayed than dead. But like the OP I wish they would take more interest in assisting women with children.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Ozimax, Time does not form part of the contract. Most T&C's state that the arrival time is not guaranteed so therefore Qantas had fulfilled their part of the contract.

This is not necessarily true as a statement in law.

Time certainly may form part of the contract, just maybe not at the time the ticket is issued.

There is significant law surronding the issue of whether an airline ticket is indeed a contract or whether it is too vague to be enforceable (not least because it states it doesn't guarantee time, to carry you to the destination printed on the ticket. or even to carry you at all).

However, most legal opinion is that the contract is firmed once a passenger has acutally checked in. Then it argued that a whole raft of protections (for the passenger) kick in, for example once you have checked in the airline is responsible for your well being. (So if you are delayed for a significant period the airline should then be obligated to look after you and provide food and accommodation etc).

While maybe not on point for the specific case of the OP, for international travel airlines can be responsible for damage caused by delay (see the Montreal Convention).

A very well set out summary can (of all places) be found here: the montreal convention - The Holiday Place plc

With the relevant excerpt:

Passenger delays

In case of passenger delay, the air carrier is liable for damage unless it took all reasonable measures to avoid the damage or it was impossible to take such measures. The liability for passenger delay is limited to 4150 SDRs (approximately £3,300).

​

However - damage caused by the delay may be limited to hotels and food - and most companies would try and exclude liability for consequential damage.

The key hurdle is to prove the airline did not take all reaosnable measures.

 

[Commuter]

Then again , why should those that (likely) tried to get a cheaper price by booking separately get the same benefits as those that actually booked a through ticket. It was not Qantas's problem once Qantas had delivered the passengers to the destination which they had been paid to get them to

While I agree with your points, I frequently make separate bookings not to save money but to save the hassle of having to call the airline to make mixed class bookings etc as well as weird routes. It's far easier for me to do a DIY but end up with separate bookings than to phone airlines to explain what I want and make sure that they get it right. I have had far too many things go wrong when making bookings over the phone (and also at travel agent) that I prefer to do everything myself. I do have a good travel insurance that covers things like missed connection though.

It's inadequate online booking systems that cause me to make separate bookings, not my desire to save money (if I wanted to save money, I'd just fly economy class everywhere).

 

[russianrob]

And while we are at it,
Why is there no airline charter like in Europe, forcing them to look after us better:?:

 

[serfty]

And while we are at it,
Why is there no airline charter like in Europe, forcing them to look after us better:?:

The tyranny of distance?

... or a bleeding heart European Parliament ...

If that Qantas flight had been cancelled out of LHR, Qantas would be liable for €600 compensation per passenger.

 

[NYCguy]

I am especially grateful that Qantas values its safety record, and would rather have my family delayed than dead. But like the OP I wish they would take more interest in assisting women with children.

Welcome to the 21st century, Redroo. Although many people will be disappointed, tickets back to the 1950's are sold out. We're stuck in an era where women are treated the same as men, and having a child or two with you doesn't tip the balance.

Having said that, I can't imagine why two women taking a small child on an intercontinental journey would do so without being adequately prepared to cope if plans go awry, which they sometimes do.

Yes, QF messed things up by departing late, but presumably there was a whole 744 or 388 of passengers who were equally inconvenienced. These days the concept of "women and children first" is little more than a quaint anachronism. And airlines stick to their contractual obligations. Unless, perhaps, one pays upwards of $15K for one's ticket, one should expect them to do nothing more.

 

[sampson]

While maybe not on point for the specific case of the OP, for international travel airlines can be responsible for damage caused by delay (see the Montreal Convention).

A very well set out summary can (of all places) be found here: the montreal convention - The Holiday Place plc

With the relevant excerpt:

Passenger delays

In case of passenger delay, the air carrier is liable for damage unless it took all reasonable measures to avoid the damage or it was impossible to take such measures. The liability for passenger delay is limited to 4150 SDRs (approximately £3,300).

​

However - damage caused by the delay may be limited to hotels and food - and most companies would try and exclude liability for consequential damage.

The key hurdle is to prove the airline did not take all reaosnable measures.

The ACCC and Consumer Affairs tell me the airline - ie not the passenger - has to prove it took all reasonable steps. What I like is the low threshold to set aside confidentiality and privilege in board meetings: Cole v Austraslian Wheat Board, ATO, Law Institute, Fedpol v Clements Dunne & Bell.

Their offices are looking into VA selling tix, shifting its metal around and refusing compensation. Part of that is looking into the convention.

If I hear anything I'll post here because, unlike Jetstar's confidential settlement for cancelling a route and tickets to Nagoya to save $100m (as revealed by Dixon in his commubques with Jetstar), VA hasn't made an offer yet with a confidentiality clause.

 

[Dave Noble]

If that Qantas flight had been delayed out of LHR, Qantas would be liable for €600 compensation per passenger.

The word could would be more appropriate. There are conditions to it which may have protected the airline

The legislation wasn't written to penalise airlines for aeroplanes getting faults

Dave

 

[MEL_Traveller]

The ACCC and Consumer Affairs tell me the airline - ie not the passenger - has to prove it took all reasonable steps.

Indeed - but I can almost guarantee you the airline will respond to list all the actions it took and that it believes it took all reasonable steps.

The passenger will then have to try and mount and argument to show why the airline didn't....

Same same but different...