Qantas Group branding is there an aura about it?

[dajop]

Over the last couple of days two instances of some amazing differences between QF (group) and competitors - has made me wonder is there a big portion of the community who won't fly anyone else, or is just they don't know any better.

#1 - Checking on QF PE fare to Europe for a friend - on the dates of travel it was around $5.8K . My advice - forget it, go TG, for an extra $300 in business class in their new seats (even their old seats would be probably better than PE). How do QF get away with charging as much for PE as their competitors do for business class? (I suppose their food is "Neil Perry' inspired and the seats have been designed by Marc Newson ... TG just can't beat that )

#2 Pricing long weekend in SIN for my partner to come and join me here. ex-MEL JQ are charging around $1230 return (via DRW both directions), no luggage, no IFE, no catering. SQ charging $1080. QF themselves only about $1270. I have to assume that JQ are full enough on both MEL-DRW and DRW-SIN sectors that they needn't bother chasing the MEL-SIN market. Who in their right mind would fly JQ via DRW when SQ is available for $150 cheaper (or for that matter that QF is available for effectively the same price)?

 

[openseat]

#2 Pricing long weekend in SIN for my partner to come and join me here. ex-MEL JQ are charging around $1230 return (via DRW both directions), no luggage, no IFE, no catering. SQ charging $1080. QF themselves only about $1270. I have to assume that JQ are full enough on both MEL-DRW and DRW-SIN sectors that they needn't bother chasing the MEL-SIN market. Who in their right mind would fly JQ via DRW when SQ is available for $150 cheaper (or for that matter that QF is available for effectively the same price)?

For JQ, I think perception of being cheaper counts for a lot. Just talk to anyone who has had to compete in retail against the likes of Kmart/Target/BigW/Bunnings. Often the prices are more, but people are hooked by the perception of cheapness.

 

[oz_mark]

Over the last couple of days two instances of some amazing differences between QF (group) and competitors - has made me wonder is there a big portion of the community who won't fly anyone else, or is just they don't know any better.

I don't know what it is, but it is something that Qantas use to their advantage. Charging a premium for their 'service'.

#1 - Checking on QF PE fare to Europe for a friend - on the dates of travel it was around $5.8K . My advice - forget it, go TG, for an extra $300 in business class in their new seats (even their old seats would be probably better than PE). How do QF get away with charging as much for PE as their competitors do for business class? (I suppose their food is "Neil Perry' inspired and the seats have been designed by Marc Newson ... TG just can't beat that )

#2 Pricing long weekend in SIN for my partner to come and join me here. ex-MEL JQ are charging around $1230 return (via DRW both directions), no luggage, no IFE, no catering. SQ charging $1080. QF themselves only about $1270. I have to assume that JQ are full enough on both MEL-DRW and DRW-SIN sectors that they needn't bother chasing the MEL-SIN market. Who in their right mind would fly JQ via DRW when SQ is available for $150 cheaper (or for that matter that QF is available for effectively the same price)?

There are some on this board that would avoid SQ like the plague!

 

[Travel Guru]

I think you'll find with Qantas, alot of the "brand loyalty" has to do with the fact that alot of J & im sure Y+ pax aren't paying for the fares themselves so aren't too concerned by the price.

From experience I can tell you that leisure travellers in all classes definately don't have as much brand loyalty as the suits who tend to occupy the J seats.

Status obviously helps with Brand loyalty, but looking at corporates who are paying their own way (ie the business owners in SME businesses) it comes down minimising connection times, something Qantas is good at due to their multitude of hubs, and although i'm a big fan of TG's J product and price, they can't in most cases compete with QF on this.

TG

 

[Anna]

Travel Guru beat me to it! I agree. Plus, on the dates that I am paying $5.8K to fly to Europe Y+ on QF, TG is charging $7K+ for J. I can't find a fare that is only $300 more than QF at the right time. So with that price differential, the much longer layover times on TG (= much less convenient) and the lack of Oneworld points & status credits, I have chosen QF Y+.

 

[Travel Guru]

Sorry Anna, I didn't mean to steal your thunder.

Are you pricing your TG fares online or through an agent, as some agents have private fares which you wont find online?

TG

 

[sr81]

My Father and I are off to Russia for some vodka and cold in Nov. He looked at Y+ (BA) but the TG 55+ deal with J all the way was just too good. Whilst he does have longer lay-over it does cancel out the LHR transfer at the other end as TG flys direct to ARN.

If these cashed up seniors are all about Y+ for $5500 then TG must be an option.

ANNA - Looking forward to a TR as I just can't see the value in QF Y+ if you are paying your own way. Corp policies on Y only are an expection.

 

[NM]

another factor in the difference in fare price between QF and TG (as the example quoted in the thread) is that the two airline's labour costs are very different. And this is across the board, from cleaners, to cabin crew, to tech crew, to engineers to office staff. This also continues to other costs like rent/property etc.

Then as soon as QF tries to "off-shore" some of their labour costs in order to compete, their is much screaming and gnashing of teeth. But then the same people complain that the QF fares are higher than airlines from regions with significantly lower cost bases. If we want the cheap fares, we have to accept the need to reduce costs such as labour. If we don't want QF to off-shore labour costs then we have to be prepared to pay higher fares than their competitors. Simple economics.

 

[Travel Guru]

Absolutely, well put NM.

TG

 

[oz_mark]

another factor in the difference in fare price between QF and TG (as the example quoted in the thread) is that the two airline's labour costs are very different. And this is across the board, from cleaners, to cabin crew, to tech crew, to engineers to office staff. This also continues to other costs like rent/property etc.

Then as soon as QF tries to "off-shore" some of their labour costs in order to compete, their is much screaming and gnashing of teeth. But then the same people complain that the QF fares are higher than airlines from regions with significantly lower cost bases. If we want the cheap fares, we have to accept the need to reduce costs such as labour. If we don't want QF to off-shore labour costs then we have to be prepared to pay higher fares than their competitors. Simple economics.

For which I am prepared to pay a small premium. But sometimes the fare differences are too great. I also suspect that if QF were somehow to magically offshore everything tomorrow, then they would just pocket all the savings and pass none on.

 

[Anna]

SR81 - will do TR when I get back. I am keeping an open mind on the value of QF Y+ and just giving it a go. In the last couple of years I have gone to Europe in the northern summer on D fares with CX and JAL for around the current QF Y+ cost, so I may revert to hunting out the best Oneworld D fare if QF Y+ is not up to much. It would take an irresistible deal to make me look outside Oneworld though.

A few years ago I got upgraded into BA WT+ which was very comfortable, so it will be interesting to compare the QF product.

 

[JohnK]

How do QF get away with charging as much for PE as their competitors do for business class? (I suppose their food is "Neil Perry' inspired and the seats have been designed by Marc Newson ... TG just can't beat that )

I think you will find the majority of people using QF premium economy or even business class do not pay for their own airfares.

I have already formed an opinion on how QF has totally overpriced their premium economy product and reading all trip reports and comments on AFF and FT so far has not changed my opinion in the slightest.

Who in their right mind would fly JQ via DRW when SQ is available for $150 cheaper (or for that matter that QF is available for effectively the same price)?

Is it the JQ reputation for having the cheapest airfares? Some people are naive. Maybe some people look on the JQ website only and book through them exclusively. If JQ ware cheap once they must be the cheapest.

Outside of sale periods JQ are not always the cheapest as I have found out on a number of occassions when doing research for flights to SE Asia. I would hate to see what happens when JQ introduces routes to Europe....

 

[Fluid-Flyer]

…is there a big portion of the community who won't fly anyone else, or is just they don't know any better.

I guess a business uses Brand & Loyalty marketing techniques to diminish the impact price has on customer purchase decisions. [I find Qantas’ approach interesting; because it uses these two (relatively cheaper) tools, more than Product (quality) Differentiation, to generate higher margins.]

I have to assume that JQ are full enough on both MEL-DRW and DRW-SIN sectors that they needn't bother chasing the MEL-SIN market.

The thing to remember about Jetstar, is that it is run by Qantas’ “Yield Management” guru! Jetstar has become increasingly slick at charging higher prices for certain flights at certain times, as it gains confidence in the data it has collected about buyer behaviour. This is translating into me buying one way on DJ & the other on JQ (domestically).

Is it the JQ reputation for having the cheapest airfares? Some people are naive. Maybe some people look on the JQ website only and book through them exclusively. If JQ ware cheap once they must be the cheapest.

Believe it or not, some of us would rate Jetstar’s customer service as the best (for a major domestic jet airline) in Australia!

Luckily everyone is different and appreciates different things. For me, I like; understated, instant availability and personal/individual service. And JQ delivers this to me, with relative consistency. For example, I am “first name” or “mate” on JQ as opposed to “last name” or “title” on QF. I am seriously checked to make sure I am strapped in when departing on JQ, as opposed to being checked to “see if my shoes match my outfit” on DJ [MAY’08]. And I press the button and receive service with a smile any time (while the JetShop is open) on JQ, whereas on TT I am made to feel like a pariah for ordering outside of the “trolley service time”.

Something I think JQ could do better though, is JetSaver Loyalty Recognition.

While I agree that Jetstar having it’s own FF program wouldn’t work, because my purchase decisions involve a “whole of Group perspective”, in exactly the same way that their network and route decisions are part of a “whole of Group strategy”. I am quite annoyed that I don’t get some sort of recognition for my JQ JetSaver/Light flying. So I propose;

Jetstar Jade

Jetstar Jade could be a tier status that kicks in once you have flown “X” number of COMBINED Qantas Group flight segments in a QFF membership year. (e.g. 40 JQ+QF segments). Jetstar Jade could be in addition to any QFF status (and that level of privileges), and simply printed on the back of the QFF card. So, you could be Qantas FF Bronze & Jetstar Jade on the flip side, or Qantas FF Silver with Jetstar Jade on the back… etc

So, what do I think Jetstar Jade should deliver – Lounge Access (where available, and only if flying QF or JQ), JetFlex zone seats pre-selectable during booking on any fare & use of the StarClass queue at check-in (where available). Maybe an increased JQ checked-baggage allowance, but with Light fares now in the mix, this might be hard.

I reckon this would allow Qantas to maintain its delicate balancing act between the two brands, while increasing Group loyalty.

 

[Travel Guru]

A few years ago I got upgraded into BA WT+ which was very comfortable, so it will be interesting to compare the QF product.

Given how average the BA WT+ product is, i've no doubt you'll find it a big improvement, but i'll be keen to hear your thoughts.

TG

 

[Happy Dude]

another factor in the difference in fare price between QF and TG (as the example quoted in the thread) is that the two airline's labour costs are very different. And this is across the board, from cleaners, to cabin crew, to tech crew, to engineers to office staff. This also continues to other costs like rent/property etc.

Then as soon as QF tries to "off-shore" some of their labour costs in order to compete, their is much screaming and gnashing of teeth. But then the same people complain that the QF fares are higher than airlines from regions with significantly lower cost bases. If we want the cheap fares, we have to accept the need to reduce costs such as labour. If we don't want QF to off-shore labour costs then we have to be prepared to pay higher fares than their competitors. Simple economics.

But as soon as some of the "off-shore" competition tries to fly on QF's profitable routes, QF scream and hide behind the Aus government.

Seems like swings and round-a-bouts, but QF want all the chocolates.

Plus, there's no guarantee that QF fares would come down if QF reduced some of their operating costs such as labour. But there is no surer thing that AUS - USA fares would reduce with a few more carriers operating between those countries. Whether or not it's sustainable (more carriers) is another issue.

There must be a certain number of flyers prepared only to fly QF, regardless of cost/value. QF used the notion, albeit sarcastically, in one of their adverts....."deep-seeded patriotism towards our national airline" or some such claptrap....

 

[moa999]

But as soon as some of the "off-shore" competition tries to fly on QF's profitable routes, QF scream and hide behind the Aus government.

SQ is welcome to fly internationally so long as they setup a partnership that is 50.1% Australian owned.


Note that V Australia is 25% UK owned (ie Branson), remainder is Toll and public.
Tiger is almost entirely foreign owned

Very different to setting up in Australia and competing on equal terms versus a fly-in/ out strategy.

Would be very interested to see an analysis of the pilot and aircrew background across QF, DJ, JQ and TT

 

[JohnK]

Believe it or not, some of us would rate Jetstar’s customer service as the best (for a major domestic jet airline) in Australia!

Really? So all those horror experiences people continue to post are just a myth? Unfortunately I won't get to sample JQs excellent customer service anytime soon.

I would be interested to know if given the situation posted by dajop of travelling MEL-SIN and JQ is priced at $1230 without any extras, SQ priced at $1080 and QF priced at $1270 would you still choose JQ over the other 2 full service carriers?

 

[Fluid-Flyer]

Really? So all those horror experiences people continue to post are just a myth?

My experiences don’t mirror these. For example, this month, I’ve had two issues. A "mechanical" somewhere on the network, resulted in a delay on a flight I had already checked-in for. I went up to the gate agent, who without hesitation and before I asked anything, said “I can get you a seat on the next flight, would you like to change?” Second example, JQ rang me to advise they had cancelled a morning flight from its schedule, and put me onto the later flight. Unfortunately this would mean arriving way too late. (I know when Jetstar rings - something bad has happened as they normally just send “change confirmation emails”.) So instead, they re-routed me onto Qantas connecting to a Jetstar flight from a different city, giving me a more useful arrival time. (It’s a bit amusing looking at the email this generated, which is the standard non-pdf style QF itinerary, emailed from “Jetstar Airways”, using an amadeus.net address. It is headed Qantas Itinerary, then lists Jetstar Airways GPO Box 4713, and finally the QF flight details. So if something goes wrong now, I’ve got no idea who to complain to. LOL)

Also, check this out - Jetstar passengers stranded in Hobart - Breaking News - National - Breaking News which describes a cancellation in HBA; that resulted in moving some passengers to available seats on QF, bussing others up to LST to fly out and providing accommodation for those non-locals they couldn’t get out of HBA that day.

This (and my experience) makes me wonder what sort of “scoring system” JQ is using to decide who gets what in a delay/cancellation, because it’s not first come best served!

I would be interested to know if given the situation posted by dajop of travelling MEL-SIN and JQ is priced at $1230 without any extras, SQ priced at $1080 and QF priced at $1270 would you still choose JQ over the other 2 full service carriers?

• First up, as pointed out this price is likely an anomaly.
• Second issue, would I fly onestop, when there is a nonstop option? Daytime for a “leg stretch” and with the right FF status inducements (as I outlined in my earlier post) yes I might. Such inducements cause me to accept flying via DFW in the USA on AA!
• Third issue, flying an ala’ carte airline vs a full fare airline (all 3 of which, I consider, offer an acceptable level of “full service”*) comes down to seat comfort, and therefore the particular aeroplane that I would be flying on and any loyalty benefits (or add-on charge) I could use to get a good seat assignment.
• Forth issue, pricing out the ala’ carte options, I think I would purchase or pre-purchase around an additional $100 (return) of onboard products/services on JQ. (Depending on the purpose & duration of the trip, I don’t think I would have problems complying with the 10kg carryon only “Light” fare rules.)

* I do not feel that Tiger (MEL-DRW-SIN) offers an acceptable level of onboard service professionalism, plus lounge access options are restricted; so would probably not consider flying them unless they were offering a price I couldn’t afford to say no to.

So, to answer your question, right now, today, as things are, I would probably choose the QF flight at a $150 premium to SQ, for status based lounge access & seat allocation reasons, as well as QFF program credits. (But as I have just dropped to QFF Gold, in part due to - no loyalty recognition of my JetSaver flying, at some point SQ + Priority Pass may look the better option!)

 

[straitman]

Believe it or not, some of us would rate Jetstar’s customer service as the best (for a major domestic jet airline) in Australia!

Really? So all those horror experiences people continue to post are just a myth? Unfortunately I won't get to sample JQs excellent customer service anytime soon.

JohnK,

I think you are being (deliberately or other wise) very selective in your reading and comments here.

Fluid-Flyer said 'some of us' in his comment and did not comment or refer to the 'horror experiences people continue to post'

Neither comment has any numeric or quantifiable value attached so can be read as either +ve OR -ve.

Put simply I believe that both comments are correct. As YOU know, I have only travelled JQ once fron SYD-CHC-SYD and had an absolutely outstanding flight. It does not mean they are always good BUT conversely some horror stories does not mean they are always bad.