Qantas Refusal to pay Downgrade Refund

[smoke85]

Hi all,

Long time reader, but first time poster.

I have an interesting issue with Qantas, but I suspect (fear) that I am not alone, but perhaps I am a bit more bombastic and not willing to take no for an answer from Qantas.

So, in March 2023 I booked 1-way Flights LHR-SIN-MEL-TSV for myself, wife and 13 month old infant. Booking was PE LHR to SIN on QF2 (A380), PE SIN to MEL on QF36 (B787) and Y on the domestic leg.

In May 2023, Qantas changed the 787 to an A330 and downgraded us to Economy. I accepted the downgrade as we needed to fly, and I called the international call center to request a refund. I spoke to an agent who confirmed the refund was due and would be processed within 6 weeks. 8 weeks passed and surprise surprise; no refund. I called again, got the usual apology and promise it would be processed in 3 days, confirmation of the amount being £550 per adult and £50 for the infant. A week later with no refund, I called again and was told that the request was visible on my file, but that Qantas Finance had not yet approved the refund. I also emailed frequent flyer (no response) and contacted by Twitter (also ignored). At this point, I knew nothing further would happen until after travel and I didn't want to waste anymore of my time

We travelled in December as scheduled and I put in a complaint in via the online platform 2 weeks ago (mid January 2024). In the complaint I stated my intention to commence small claims proceedings as I reasonably believe I have given Qantas sufficient time to process the refund. Today I received a response confirming only £550 was payable (being the 75% policy). I immediately emailed back and refused this offer an enquired about the full amount previously advised and again mentioned that I would be considering Small claims action and looking to claim Interest and costs associated for such action.

The same Agent who emailed earlier came back stating that the £550 was for each adult (ok - that's good), but that no refund would be made for the infant as we had paid only Taxes and surcharges (not so good - Infants are 10% fare + Taxes - Qantas is being dishonest again!). She further went on to say no compensation of interest would be paid and asked that I appreciate Qantas position here. I am beside myself at the deceitful and dishonest behaviour of the business.

I made this booking on a UK credit Card in the UK. So, should I email back and point out her inference on the infant is incorrect and should I push for interest / compensation or should I just go ahead and commence legal action? I am considering taking it in the UK as it is easier to file.

Or, should I consider a Section 75 charge back on my credit card and let them duke it out?

Also, does anybody think its worth reporting to the ACCC?

Any advice would be appreciated.

 

[Cheatah]

\to clarify how much are they now offering (£550 per adult?) and how much are you expecting ?

As its a UK originating itinerary (all on one ticket?) its subject to EU261/UK261 which can only help if Qantas is difficult about paying (or not paying enough).

However, if they are offering you 75% refund of the original fare (?) that is what EU261 says it should offer. If anything, they only need to offer 75% of the sector which you were downgraded on (sin-mel) which of course would be less than 75% of the entire fare.

 

[smoke85]

I'm expecting £550 per adult plus £50 for the infant. I'm only expecting it on the sector, not the entire trip. I'm very familiar with UK261, and because the downgrade was classed as voluntary and done so far out, it's not applicable in this instance, otherwise I would have gone down that route.

 

[kangarooflyer88]

What are you looking to get out of this? That's the first thing we need to think about. Yes, Qantas must legally provide you with a refund on those downgraded segments. But is there something else you want here as well? If I was you (and I'm not you by the way) I would be looking at getting some bonus Qantas Points for the trouble.

Since this flight departed the UK, you need to consider UK261 rules (to my knowledge Australia has no consumer protections when it comes to things like downgrades). Per the UK's civil aviation authority, you are owed a refund of 75% of the flight price per passenger for the flight which was downgraded since the flight was over 3500 km in distance. This should mean that Qantas at a minimum must reimburse 75% of the fare paid for the impacted sector (i.e. SIN - MEL). So at the end of the day the question is, do you want to pursue Qantas for 75% of the 10% infant fare you bought for that sector? That's a personal judgement decision.

But I think part of this goes deeper than the refund. Yes it will make you financially whole, but it won't make you spiritually whole in the sense that you planned on enjoying a Premium Economy experience with your partner and kid for much of the journey and had that disrupted. Is there a lesson you can learn from here? I think the key thing is that when faced with such disruptions, ask yourself, what do you want out of this? For instance, maybe Qantas could have moved you to PE in QF2 the whole way and reworked it so that it was LHR > SIN > SYD > TSV instead. Maybe they could have put you on QF9 direct to MEL then up to TSV on QF. From my experience dealing with Qantas, they generally provide some latitude in changing itineraries when these interruptions happen and would be sympathetic to someone flying the better part of a day with them wanting to ensure they have a smooth experience.

-RooFlyer88

 

[RichardMEL]

So you're missing the 50 quid for the infant since they've (finally) offered the 1100?

What was the total per adult fare for the LHR-TSV routing? Was this just a one way ticket?

 

[serfty]

I'm expecting £550 per adult plus £50 for the infant. I'm only expecting it on the sector, not the entire trip. I'm very familiar with UK261, and because the downgrade was classed as voluntary and done so far out, it's not applicable in this instance, otherwise I would have gone down that route.

Welcome to AFF

Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

It is too late now, but I believe you should not have accepted the downgrade. If in the same situation I would have worked with Qantas to get rerouted - maybe travelling a day earlier or later, QF10 via PER, QF2 to SYD - whatever it took.

It was up to Qantas to find a solution acceptable to you.

 

[kangarooflyer88]

It is too late now, but I believe you should not have accepted the downgrade. If in the same situation I would have worked with Qantas to get rerouted - maybe travelling a day earlier or later, QF10 via PER, QF2 to SYD - whatever it took.

That's a key thing I think a lot of people don't realize. When an airline changes something on you, you have options. You don't have to accept it. You can request something else or even a refund.

 

[muppet]

Welcome to AFF

Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

It is too late now, but I believe you should not have accepted the downgrade. If in the same situation I would have worked with Qantas to get rerouted - maybe travelling a day earlier or later, QF10 via PER, QF2 to SYD - whatever it took.

It was up to Qantas to find a solution acceptable to you.

Very true @serfty but as we all know, easier said than done.

 

[muppet]

Hi all,

Long time reader, but first time poster.

I have an interesting issue with Qantas, but I suspect (fear) that I am not alone, but perhaps I am a bit more bombastic and not willing to take no for an answer from Qantas.

So, in March 2023 I booked 1-way Flights LHR-SIN-MEL-TSV for myself, wife and 13 month old infant. Booking was PE LHR to SIN on QF2 (A380), PE SIN to MEL on QF36 (B787) and Y on the domestic leg.

In May 2023, Qantas changed the 787 to an A330 and downgraded us to Economy. I accepted the downgrade as we needed to fly, and I called the international call center to request a refund. I spoke to an agent who confirmed the refund was due and would be processed within 6 weeks. 8 weeks passed and surprise surprise; no refund. I called again, got the usual apology and promise it would be processed in 3 days, confirmation of the amount being £550 per adult and £50 for the infant. A week later with no refund, I called again and was told that the request was visible on my file, but that Qantas Finance had not yet approved the refund. I also emailed frequent flyer (no response) and contacted by Twitter (also ignored). At this point, I knew nothing further would happen until after travel and I didn't want to waste anymore of my time

We travelled in December as scheduled and I put in a complaint in via the online platform 2 weeks ago (mid January 2024). In the complaint I stated my intention to commence small claims proceedings as I reasonably believe I have given Qantas sufficient time to process the refund. Today I received a response confirming only £550 was payable (being the 75% policy). I immediately emailed back and refused this offer an enquired about the full amount previously advised and again mentioned that I would be considering Small claims action and looking to claim Interest and costs associated for such action.

The same Agent who emailed earlier came back stating that the £550 was for each adult (ok - that's good), but that no refund would be made for the infant as we had paid only Taxes and surcharges (not so good - Infants are 10% fare + Taxes - Qantas is being dishonest again!). She further went on to say no compensation of interest would be paid and asked that I appreciate Qantas position here. I am beside myself at the deceitful and dishonest behaviour of the business.

I made this booking on a UK credit Card in the UK. So, should I email back and point out her inference on the infant is incorrect and should I push for interest / compensation or should I just go ahead and commence legal action? I am considering taking it in the UK as it is easier to file.

Or, should I consider a Section 75 charge back on my credit card and let them duke it out?

Also, does anybody think its worth reporting to the ACCC?

Any advice would be appreciated.

If the extra £50 is really something you want to pursue, lodge your claim in your local CAT. I imagine once that happens someone in QF Legal tells reservations/accounts to pull their heads in. Don’t forget to claim the application fee.

 

[drron]

I would definitely recommend that you at least seek advice from the ACCC though they will usually tell you to contact your State Consumer Affairs office.
Under Australian consumer laws you are entitled to compensation for “distress and discomfort “ even if your trip commenced overseas.
This was confirmed last year in the High Court in the Ruby Princess case. Even Americans were then able to claim against Princess Cruises Australia.

 

[kangarooflyer88]

Under Australian consumer laws you are entitled to compensation for “distress and discomfort “ even if your trip commenced overseas.
This was confirmed last year in the High Court in the Ruby Princess case. Even Americans were then able to claim against Princess Cruises Australia.

A big exception to that rule are flights where you get a bundle of rights.

 

[Lynda2475]

Since the flights were purchased from UK site in GBP and originated in UK, it would be UK not Aussie consumer law that applies. Therefore I doubt any Australian State consumer assistance service will get involved.

 

[UP4014]

Personally, take the 550 per adult and save yourself becoming bitter and twisted about it.

 

[RichardMEL]

Personally, take the 550 per adult and save yourself becoming bitter and twisted about it.

Sounds like that ship may have sailed.....

 

[drron]

Since the flights were purchased from UK site in GBP and originated in UK, it would be UK not Aussie consumer law that applies. Therefore I doubt any Australian State consumer assistance service will get involved.

Except that the High Court ruled that Australian Consumer law does apply even if the travel is outside Australia and people affected by airlines, cruise lines etc can take action against those companies for distress and discomfort caused by the travel being cancelled, interrupted etc.

This was in the Ruby Princess case plus the Scenic river cruise case.

 

[kangarooflyer88]

Except that the High Court ruled that Australian Consumer law does apply even if the travel is outside Australia and people affected by airlines, cruise lines etc can take action against those companies for distress and discomfort caused by the travel being cancelled, interrupted etc.

You are correct from a legal sense that international laws and treaties (i.e. Montreal Convention) recognize that impacted passengers can seek relief from either the country they originated from or the final destination.

However, I still maintain that Australian Consumer Law is vague (at best) when it comes to passenger's rights for airlines. The current legal theory being proposed by Qantas and others is that when passengers buy a flight from an airline they receive a bundle of rights depending on the fare bought. What those rights are we will have to see in court. But in terms of legislation, there simply isn't anything on the books that specifically spell out passenger's rights on flights. Yes you can construe some vague language in Consumer Law but you are at the will of the judge to interpret such language in your favour.

-RooFlyer88

 

[Lynda2475]

Except that the High Court ruled that Australian Consumer law does apply even if the travel is outside Australia and people affected by airlines, cruise lines etc can take action against those companies for distress and discomfort caused by the travel being cancelled, interrupted etc.

This was in the Ruby Princess case plus the Scenic river cruise case.

Different scenario, as those trips were purchased in Australia (in AUD) for travel outside Australia.

In the OPs case the trip was purchased outside Australia, so I maintain its UK consumer law which applies.

I cant see any state agency championing your case when the purchase was not made from Australia; and the terms on the website presented would be the UK T&Cs.

The OP has been offered correct refund for the adult fares, the only thing is question is GBP50 for the infant which they can request but filing costs and legal actions will be much more than that and that money wasted if spent in Australia as they need to go via the UK consumer law; as the money was collected by Qantas UK not Qantas AU.

 

[muppet]

Since the flights were purchased from UK site in GBP and originated in UK, it would be UK not Aussie consumer law that applies. Therefore I doubt any Australian State consumer assistance service will get involved.

Ah yes, good point. UK law probably better anyway considering the state of aviation protections in aus.

 

[dajop]

Do people ever earn interest on refunds/compensation from airlines?

 

[p--and--t]

Do people ever earn interest on refunds/compensation from airlines?

Perhaps, if you are very lucky and slim chance a magistrate thinks its a good idea or you get an OOC settlement at the court room door or mediation session.