Tokyo Haneda slot - how will Virgin Operate it?

[Bagpuss]

Yep. Because they are operated by mainline Virgin not VARA, they will make an unwanted appearance on many other markets vs previously thought. KLM still have some more -700s, I reckon they might opt for some more.

It’s a low cost carrier product that’s the issue. Seat and nothing else.

I thought the KLM -700's were all for VARA to replace the F100 fleet. Whilst currently they pop up on East Coast they're for crew training and will eventally just fly VARA routes (which would include some interstate flying such as PER > ADL / DRW, maybe the PER > MEL > KGI > PER route. But the rest such as PER > BNE would no longer happen.

 

[simmomelb]

I thought the KLM -700's were all for VARA to replace the F100 fleet. Whilst currently they pop up on East Coast they're for crew training and will eventally just fly VARA routes (which would include some interstate flying such as PER > ADL / DRW, maybe the PER > MEL > KGI > PER route. But the rest such as PER > BNE would no longer happen.

Absolutely, that's my understanding also and I've not heard that plan change.
I'd be surprised if you see many of the all Y 700's by mid next year (other than for VARA).
Saab34, out of interest, are there any other reasons that make you feel the all Y's will expand further as the mainline fleet?

 

[Bagpuss]

Absolutely, that's my understanding also and I've not heard that plan change.
I'd be surprised if you see many of the all Y 700's by mid next year (other than for VARA).
Saab34, out of interest, are there any other reasons that make you feel the all Y's will expand further as the mainline fleet?

Yup. Also to add that they are all Y class due to their VARA intentions.

I'm sure if they planned for domestic use they would have had business class installed.

I suspect the issues currently are (hence why they end doing originally unplanned destinations) :

- The two 700's with business class, one will need to be used for Japan. (Chances are Virgin has been planning for this for ages)
- Heavily utilization of the 800's so backfilling to make better operational use
- Training taking longer than expected
- Able to extend use of the F100's
- Waiting on ACCC decisions in regards to Alliance, in which Qantas blocked by purchasing and they have to unwind the charter agreement

 

[Himeno]

Yup. Also to add that they are all Y class due to their VARA intentions.

I'm sure if they planned for domestic use they would have had business class installed.

I suspect the issues currently are (hence why they end doing originally unplanned destinations) :

- The two 700's with business class, one will need to be used for Japan. (Chances are Virgin has been planning for this for ages)

Throughout 2020 to Oct 2022, IASC was extending the deadline for both Qantas and Virgin to use their HND slots, based on the Japanese border being closed. The last extension was to start service by 26 March 2023. Qantas did. Virgin asked for more time last October.

IASC asked that Virgin explain the request and after getting information from Virgin, and later clarifications in November, December and January, IASC approved the extension request and gave them until June 30.
Virgin has likely been making back up plans for the HND slot since at least October. If they don't start services by the end of June, it is highly likely that IASC isn't going to give them another extension and will take the slots back for reallocation (which means that Qantas will get it).

VA's current and former US partners are also in a fight over HND slots. The US DOT HND waivers expire in November. Delta is trying to reduce demand for one of their HND routes (from PDX) while keeping hold of the slot. UA is questioning why DL is claiming no demand from PDX while they are selling economy fares on PDX-HND for over $10,000, while 1 stop fares are around $1000.

 

[justinbrett]

VA's current and former US partners are also in a fight over HND slots. The US DOT HND waivers expire in November. Delta is trying to reduce demand for one of their HND routes (from PDX) while keeping hold of the slot. UA is questioning why DL is claiming no demand from PDX while they are selling economy fares on PDX-HND for over $10,000, while 1 stop fares are around $1000.

I believe AA and HA have backed up DL on this too - UA is out alone in the argument

 

[HS-TQE]

I thought the KLM -700's were all for VARA to replace the F100 fleet. Whilst currently they pop up on East Coast they're for crew training and will eventally just fly VARA routes (which would include some interstate flying such as PER > ADL / DRW, maybe the PER > MEL > KGI > PER route. But the rest such as PER > BNE would no longer happen.

2 of the all-Y -700s are also currently in Queensland filling in for VBY and VBZ over the next 2 months at least, whilst both legacy -700s are either starting or currently undergoing maintenance before returning in time for CNS-HND services.

 

[Harrison_133]

2 of the all-Y -700s are also currently in Queensland filling in for VBY and VBZ over the next 2 months at least, whilst both legacy -700s are either starting or currently undergoing maintenance before returning in time for CNS-HND services.

The all-Y 700s are not filling in for VBY and VBZ. They’re currently covered by 800s, which is also the case when one line switches to Cairns to Haneda.

Those 2 lines of flying for all-Y 700s out of Brisbane are a permanent fixture and appear in the schedule for the entirety of the current booking window (until April 2024).

In other news, VBY is on the way back to Brisbane and is scheduled to re-enter service tomorrow.

 

[Bagpuss]

Those 2 lines of flying for all-Y 700s out of Brisbane are a permanent fixture and appear in the schedule for the entirety of the current booking window (until April 2024).

I suspect that is because they don't when the F100 fleet will fully exit. Just found the press release :

Since it’s re-launch in November 2020 the Virgin Australia Group has announced it will grow its 737 fleet by over 50%, from 58 aircraft to 88. The Group currently operates 10 x F100 aircraft across its operations in Western Australia, with the F100 fleet to be gradually transitioned out and replaced by 737-700s from first quarter 2023.

“Equipping our WA operation with more modern and efficient 737 aircraft positions us to grow and to better compete in the resources sector and contract flying market across Australia. It also enables Virgin Australia to improve fleet utilisation across the Group.

“Existing F100 flight and cabin crew, VARA engineering and support staff and corporate and operations functions will be progressively trained to operate and maintain a 737 NG fleet, both as F100 aircraft are retired and as the airline continues to grow its WA resources sector and contract flying business.”

In addition to its 737 fleet, Virgin Australia Group will also continue to operate Airbus A320 aircraft as part of its resources sector and contract flying operations.

Fleet growth positions Virgin Australia for higher capacity, lower emissions

Virgin Australia Group has today taken an important step in its journey towards Net Zero, unveiling the first phase of its fleet growth program which will see four new Boeing 737 MAX 8 aircraft int

newsroom.virginaustralia.com

 

[HS-TQE]

There's also still 7 F100s active in PER with one parked. There is only 1 ex KLM 700 yet to be delivered in the tranch mentioned in the link press release.

Also with VH-VND replacing the retired VH-YUD in March this year (despite reports JH looking at phasing out the A320s) VARA will (eventually) be an all-Airbus operator in the medium term

 

[Saab34]

Absolutely, that's my understanding also and I've not heard that plan change.
I'd be surprised if you see many of the all Y 700's by mid next year (other than for VARA).
Saab34, out of interest, are there any other reasons that make you feel the all Y's will expand further as the mainline fleet?

I feel like Virgin, and I know many others agree, have perhaps got a little too comfortable operating these -700s on the East Coast. Don’t get me wrong, they are a good fit for many markets, it makes good business sense especially on some off peak timings, I note them appearing on many BNE-MEL flights recently. But the least they could have done is install that new Y seat in the machine if that’s the case.

They will be required in MEL/BNE a bit for engineering so expect them to be cycled in/out often.

Perhaps Virgin should add some -7MAX aircraft to the order. Southwest has opted for a few hundred, great for smaller off peak routes also. They are also good for getting away on time dealing with 20% less bodies.

 

[Saab34]

If they lock in the schedule a year ahead and stop last minute shuffling around then I don’t think many will mind, we just won’t book on them, well you can’t book a J seat anyway if they are loaded ahead. A BNE-PER downgrade from J to a KLM Y sure would suck.

 

[twinaisle]

At least J will get a Bento box

 

[Bagpuss]

If they lock in the schedule a year ahead and stop last minute shuffling around then I don’t think many will mind, we just won’t book on them, well you can’t book a J seat anyway if they are loaded ahead. A BNE-PER downgrade from J to a KLM Y sure would suck.

Which has happened to someone I know.

 

[HS-TQE]

At least J will get a Bento box

Y reportedly has a complimentary water bottle upon boarding. Apart from that they supposedly have a separate BoB menu from the rest of the VA Short International/Domestic network..

 

[Digicola]

Y reportedly has a complimentary water bottle upon boarding. Apart from that they supposedly have a separate BoB menu from the rest of the VA Short International/Domestic network..

Makes sense, I hope they use this opportunity to roll out menu preorders for all intl flights especially the longer ones such as Bali and Apia.

 

[twinaisle]

Y reportedly has a complimentary water bottle upon boarding. Apart from that they supposedly have a separate BoB menu from the rest of the VA Short International/Domestic network..

Yes Y will get a water bottle seat loaded. BOB menu won't be too different from the current one, just a few "Asian" options (they don't want to spend $)

Pillow and blanket available for purchase in Y. Seat loaded and complimentary in J (hopefully rolls out to other ISH routes)

 

[Bagpuss]

Dare as I say, we all the know the answer in the forum question

 

[somewhatfreqflyer]

Is there a resource online or what are the opinions of the CNS-HND route flying and going ahead in 2023? Looking at winter Japan visit and don't want to buy now and regret not going with Qantas or another carrier if Virgin loses the routes.

 

[simmomelb]

Is there a resource online or what are the opinions of the CNS-HND route flying and going ahead in 2023? Looking at winter Japan visit and don't want to buy now and regret not going with Qantas or another carrier if Virgin loses the routes.

There is no known reason why VA would lose the route, less now than before given the plans are clear.
They'll be initially using their 737-700's (with J/Business Class) for the first 6 ish weeks due to a delay with the Max, then the Max after that.
Are you based in Cairns/North Qld?

 

[justinbrett]

There is no known reason why VA would lose the route, less now than before given the plans are clear.
They'll be initially using their 737-700's (with J/Business Class) for the first 6 ish weeks due to a delay with the Max, then the Max after that.
Are you based in Cairns/North Qld?

Not lose, but entirely possible they will pull out if they lose too much money on it. There’s only so much the QLD AAIF can help as there’s so many carriers in the program and it’s capped at 200M over 3 years.

Inaugural flight still has 5/8 J seats for sale.

QF’s increased capacity to Tokyo will put further downwards pressure on fares which will reduce the profit margin - generally you need to be selling J or freight to get by on these routes. The higher Y fares might work for now but those days are numbered.

They really need to hope for a strong ex-CNS market, as I don’t think they’ll be able to compete on price for connections from the southern states.