Tokyo Haneda slot - how will Virgin Operate it?

[HS-TQE]

Safe to say it wasn't for the Queensland Government offering/throwing AAIF money to local and international carriers to subsidise carriers operating international routes in and out of Queensland, Bain Capital would've let the HND slot lapse back in March this year and we'd be discussing what QF would be doing with that slot.

 

[Bagpuss]

Safe to say it wasn't for the Queensland Government offering/throwing AAIF to local and international carriers to subsidise carriers operatinge international routes in and out of Queensland, Bain Capital would've let the HND slot back in March this year and we'd be discussing what QF would be doing with that slot.

Who knows, unless anyone has insider information.

To be factual on this CNS to HND launches on 28th June 2023 with a 737-700 with business class seats.

After this no doubt there will be observations on it load.

Looking at the website it seems 28, 29, 30 June and 3rd July, CNS to HND is sold out.

 

[MooTime]

say VA lose the HND slot in a year or whenever, why would QF get it automatically as many say there, yes they battled over it going way back, but surely HND airport or gov or whoever controls / has power to distribute the slots can decide who to bid or give it off to. there's hellova lot of other countries & airlines out there that I'm sure would love a/extra HND slot.

 

[Quickstatus]

but surely HND airport or gov or whoever controls / has power to distribute the slots can decide who to bid or give it off to

Japan did not give the slot to VA2. It was given to Australia and the organisation which is tasked to allocate the slot, the IASC, decides which "australian' carrier gets the slot.

I would imagine there is a process before VA loses a slot. Assuming the 7Max8 arrive then I cant see how it would lose the slot

 

[Himeno]

say VA lose the HND slot in a year or whenever, why would QF get it automatically as many say there, yes they battled over it going way back, but surely HND airport or gov or whoever controls / has power to distribute the slots can decide who to bid or give it off to. there's hellova lot of other countries & airlines out there that I'm sure would love a/extra HND slot.

The HND international slots are assigned by the Japanese MLIT to their equivalent department in other nations (such as the Department of Transport) to assign to their airlines on a 1:1 basis.
They will assign x amount of slots to a given nation. Half of those slots will be given to Japanese airlines to fly from HND to that given nation, while the other half will be given to that other nation for their airlines to fly to HND.

The slots that JAL and ANA are using to fly to SYD from HND *must* be used to fly to somewhere in Australia.
Japan gave 1 night slot and 2 day slots to the Australian government to assign to Australia's international airlines to fly from somewhere in Australia to HND. If one Australian airline can't use those slots, the slots go back to the government to be reassigned to another Australian airline.

 

[Quickstatus]

equivalent department

= IASC

 

[HS-TQE]

Also if Bain Capital did let the HND slot lapse back in March, QF (or any alternative 'Australian' carrier) would still have to go through the IASC application/tender processes before it's granted to the replacement carrier. This takes a few months to undertake.

 

[MooTime]

just read through old article from ISAC..... IASC Determinations.

Also if Bain Capital did let the HND slot lapse back in March, QF (or any alternative 'Australian' carrier) would still have to go through the IASC application/tender processes before it's granted to the replacement carrier. This takes a few months to undertake.

 

[Himeno]

just read through old article from ISAC..... IASC Determinations.

View attachment 334243

That is just saying that once IASC has assigned HND slots to an Australian carrier, that carrier has to apply to the Japanese authorities for precise timings at HND within the windows allowed by the slots (2200-0559 night, 0600-2159 day) and required permissions for the carrier and aircraft in question to operate in Japanese airspace (which Qantas pointed out in 2019 that VA didn't have).

There is also the possibility that, upon the release of additional slots at HND (eg if/when there are additional changes to the layout of the HND runways/taxiways, or changes in the TYO airspace - both of which has allowed more international slots at HND in the past), Japan may change the overall allocation of slots (as they did with the US slots in 2019).

If VA ends up having to return the HND slots, QF will be highly likely to immediately respond with an application for said slots (they likely already have a drift application ready to go) and any VA application or comment to a QF application isn't likely to be taken seriously unless VA has a major change to their fleet makeup, such as getting new aircraft that can reliably make a non stop trip to HND from at least BNE.

 

[eastwest101]

That is just saying that once IASC has assigned HND slots to an Australian carrier, that carrier has to apply to the Japanese authorities for precise timings at HND within the windows allowed by the slots (2200-0559 night, 0600-2159 day) and required permissions for the carrier and aircraft in question to operate in Japanese airspace (which Qantas pointed out in 2019 that VA didn't have).

There is also the possibility that, upon the release of additional slots at HND (eg if/when there are additional changes to the layout of the HND runways/taxiways, or changes in the TYO airspace - both of which has allowed more international slots at HND in the past), Japan may change the overall allocation of slots (as they did with the US slots in 2019).

If VA ends up having to return the HND slots, QF will be highly likely to immediately respond with an application for said slots (they likely already have a drift application ready to go) and any VA application or comment to a QF application isn't likely to be taken seriously unless VA has a major change to their fleet makeup, such as getting new aircraft that can reliably make a non stop trip to HND from at least BNE.

Yes - if VA did let the HND slots lapse, then it seems likely that QF would apply, if only to prevent future owners of VA or any other new startup getting the slots, but QF aren't exactly swimming in spare aircraft either at the moment, so its possible they would have to reallocate QFi A330'sQFi B789s or JQi B788s to operate this HND slot, or use QF B738's via CNS like VA is proposing.

I bet QF wouldn't be rushing for the IASC determination in such a hurry given they will have more options down the track if they ever start ordering more fleet options for med-long haul flights.

 

[MooTime]

That is just saying that once IASC has assigned HND slots to an Australian carrier, that carrier has to apply to the Japanese authorities for precise timings at HND within the windows allowed by the slots (2200-0559 night, 0600-2159 day) and required permissions for the carrier and aircraft in question to operate in Japanese airspace (which Qantas pointed out in 2019 that VA didn't have).

There is also the possibility that, upon the release of additional slots at HND (eg if/when there are additional changes to the layout of the HND runways/taxiways, or changes in the TYO airspace - both of which has allowed more international slots at HND in the past), Japan may change the overall allocation of slots (as they did with the US slots in 2019).

If VA ends up having to return the HND slots, QF will be highly likely to immediately respond with an application for said slots (they likely already have a drift application ready to go) and any VA application or comment to a QF application isn't likely to be taken seriously unless VA has a major change to their fleet makeup, such as getting new aircraft that can reliably make a non stop trip to HND from at least BNE.

why do VA need a major change in their fleet maekup? they were approved the current slot with the an A330-200, changed to a 73M & now a 700.....

Was a major point on the determination paper regarding competition, how will QF pass over this qualification / point made y IASC? They failed to previously as VA were given a slot.

QF have a draft, I'm quite sure all airlines would have a template application for these scenario applications, hardly useful or an advantageous, the landscape has changed. irrelevant draft.

We can be sure VA won't let it go in short term, they'll use the 73M from CNS as it's funded by sources outside VA bottom line.
I believe it's a 3 year gov agreement & a 5 year slot hold. Nothing will change for a while.

 

[Himeno]

Yes - if VA did let the HND slots lapse, then it seems likely that QF would apply, if only to prevent future owners of VA or any other new startup getting the slots, but QF aren't exactly swimming in spare aircraft either at the moment, so its possible they would have to reallocate QFi A330'sQFi B789s or JQi B788s to operate this HND slot, or use QF B738's via CNS like VA is proposing.

I bet QF wouldn't be rushing for the IASC determination in such a hurry given they will have more options down the track if they ever start ordering more fleet options for med-long haul flights.

Qantas has already announced plans to increase AU-TYO to 4 daily. 2 x SYD-HND, 1xMEL-NRT and 1xBNE-NRT. They clearly have the aircraft for that. Should QF pick up another HND slot, they would move MEL-NRT back to HND, as they had planned to do in 2019 when first applying for the day slots.

why do VA need a major change in their fleet maekup?

They planned to do BNE-HND with an A330, which would be pulled from HKG. They now don't have any A330s.
They have kept asking for extensions to make use of the slots. While a number of them were understandable (and QF were getting the same), since the Japanese border reopened, the additional requests for extensions have been getting less justifiable.
If VA can't make a narrow body on CNS-HND work, it would be a sign that they require a larger Australian port to make their HND slot work. A port which they can't make effective use of with their current fleet, or they need to move towards making CNS a hub and time flights from across Australia to better connect to HND.

 

[AIRwin]

Looks like VH-VBZ is overnighting in CNS on 27 January and most will likely be operating the inaugural flight?

 

[Bagpuss]

Looks like VH-VBZ is overnighting in CNS on 27 January and most will likely be operating the inaugural flight?

VH-VBY will be in Brisbane so there's always a chance it could go to Cairns on 28th June.
VA775 is scheduled to be flown by a -700 on 28th June. Though business class is sold out which may indicate it will be flown by an KLM aircraft.
The schedule should be loaded up later today, though I expect you are right.

 

[Harrison_133]

VA775 is scheduled to be flown by a -700 on 28th June. Though business class is sold out which may indicate it will be flown by an KLM aircraft.

VA775/VA780 rotation on the 28th is indeed one of the KLM 700s. Pending last minute changes, VBZ should be operating the inaugural flight.

 

[AIRwin]

Seems like 9th August is the switchover date…

Brought forward to 30 July?

 

[Digicola]

Flying to and from HND on week 2 of operations, seat maps indicate 5/8 seats taken on the outbound and 4/8 on the inbound. Might fill up last minute but maybe people aren’t willing to pay $1800 ow for this, shocker.

 

[AIRwin]

VH-VBY will be in Brisbane so there's always a chance it could go to Cairns on 28th June.

It is in fact scheduled to operate BNE-CNS on 28 June but arriving just before the inaugural VA77 is due to depart...

 

[Saab34]

Hopefully they keep it in CNS on standby as a potential backup, if the other breaks down, well wouldn’t be helpful if the only other spare aircraft is down in say Hobart.

 

[milehighclub]

Flying to and from HND on week 2 of operations, seat maps indicate 5/8 seats taken on the outbound and 4/8 on the inbound. Might fill up last minute but maybe people aren’t willing to pay $1800 ow for this, shocker.

The inaugural has 3/8 seats selected up and 0/8 back. In Y there is only 17 selected on the way back.