Tokyo Haneda slot - how will Virgin Operate it?

[Digicola]

I flew MEL>CNS>HND Economy X, and then return HND>CNS>MEL in business. Some observations from my experience:

MEL>CNS>HND (Economy X)

• My flight out of Melbourne was very early in order to make (6:30am departure). I am WP so had lounge access at Melbourne which was nice, but with a 3hr 20min connection, it felt very early to be starting my travel day. I ended up staying at the Park Royal the night before because the departure was so early.
• Even getting to the airport over an hour early, the 'International Connections' desk at T3 was insanely busy and slow moving. I was lucky that I could use the priority desk (far left) to be processed there because they had a check-in person who was trained to process international departures there. If they didn't have this person there, or if I was a Red member, I would have been concerned about missing my departure
• Connection at CNS Dom>Int was seamless. They checked my luggage straight through and I got my boarding pass for both flights at Melbourne
• CNS International is terrible. No lounges, 1 coffee shop-cough-bar and not much else except for a newsagents and 1 or 2 touristy shops. For a long connection it is woeful.
• 8IA definitely looks brand new inside. Still has that new plane smell. I was a bit apprehensive flying the MAX having sworn never to do so, but to be honest, it was fine.
• The first 1.5hrs of the flight were quite bumpy (flying up to PNG). It smoothed out after that.
• Economy X legroom (row 3) is absolutely massive, bigger than business. As others have mentioned, there is no bulkhead/divider.
• While they did meal service for the business class cabin, they were strict on sending any economy passengers who tried to use the front lavatory to the back or wait until the trolly in the aisle had returned to the back, but as the flight wore on you could see this was a losing fight. There is nothing to prevent people trying to move forward and from midway onwards you could tell the crew had pretty much given up - and I don't really blame them. VA really need to get a divider solution in place because it isn't realistic to expect the business class flight attendant to be policing the cabin divide for ecomony pax for the entire flight when they are trying to do other things. And it certainly felt like there were people who were waiting for the FA to be busy before trying to barge through (row 3 was great for observing this sort of stuff).
• Buy on Board was sufficient. I had some cheese and crackers and a glass of wine early in the flight but wanted something more substantial later in the flight that aligned more with a proper meal time.
• 2nd trolley service was WAAAAAAY too late and slow. They made an announcement about half way through the flight that 'the crew are restocking the trolley and a second service will commence in an hour'. This was obviously a total lie since we could see crew taking turns resting in the back row of economy and the announcement was made to shut people up using the call bell to request food. 1hr40min later the trolley service commenced (yes I timed it because I’d only had 1 packet of cheese and crackers to this point and I was starving). I ordered the ‘Japanese curry’. There was a massive delay between ordering this (remember I was row 3 so was among the first served in the service), and it wasn’t brought out until we were making our descent into HND so I had about 5-10min to wolf it down as the crew impatiently tried to do a rubbish collection. The ‘Japanese’ curry was a honey-soy-chicken curry which didn’t feel very Japanese at all. Massive fail and a let down for the end of the flight.

HND>CNS>MEL (Business)

• Flight is a late departure, which posed a problem for me since it was 30C+ and high humidity in Tokyo and I had to leave my hotel room at 10am. This meant by the time I checked into my flight I was a sweaty, exhausted mess. Since there is no lounge arrangement for VA passengers, even in business class, I paid for access to the Sky Lounge at T3 and then paid additional for shower access in their adjacent TIAT Lounge. VA reaaaally need to get something in place here, if only due to the late departure. The Sky Lounge was small and got crowded quickly after I got there, so arrive early if you intend on using this lounge.
• VA78 was fine. The business class crew were great and were more proactive at managing people trying to use the lavatory from the economy cabin. It probably helped that the return flight was much quieter than the outbound flight, and more people were just trying to sleep.
• I had the bento box for dinner (was delicious) and had the cheesy eggs for breakfast (was okay) and plenty of wine between. Slept on and off for a few hours. The recliner seat is comfortable but obviously a lie-flat bed would have been preferred. I couldn’t sleep well sitting up and it was probably the wine more than anything that helped put me down. I had slept terribly the night before so by the time we came into CNS I was beginning to feel quite exhausted and groggy (the wine would not have helped here either).
• My stopover at CNS was 4hrs20min. This was torture for me. There is no lounge access currently at domestic and it was an absolute zoo in the terminal. I ended up trying to rest by laying on the curvy lounges just after security but failed miserably due to the constant noise and chaos around me. By this point I hadn’t slept properly in over 24hrs.
• CNS>MEL was a bit delayed departing and the cabin manager serving business was an absolute dream. I refused food service because I felt quite deathly by the time we left because I was so utterly exhausted. She kept bringing me water and checking in on me which was lovely and you could see she felt bad she couldn’t really do anything to help my situation. I nodded off for maybe half an hour and woke feeling a little more human.

So there are my observations.
I guess there are a few things I would suggest VA do which would come as no surprise for people reading these forums:

TLDR:

• VA need to get international lounge access arrangements going on long international routes like this if they want to be taken seriously. Especially if they insist on itineraries with long stopovers if they aren’t going to adjust their domestic flights to connect better
• They also need to reopen the CNS domestic lounge because the terminal was absolute chaos on my long stopover back.
• They need to get a cabin divider installed between economy and business on the MAX asap
• They need to adjust their trolley service times in economy and ensure they give enough time for the 2nd service on outbound daytime flights since this should coincide with when more people might be expecting a dinner type meal.
• They need to get wide body aircraft on long routes like this. A lie-flat bed would have made the world of difference in how exhausted I was on my return leg if I could have actually slept lying down.

Nice to have a review in Economy X!

• I agree that I flights from SYD and MEL are really not timed very well to connect often leading to very long layovers in each direction or a double connection in BNE.
• The connection in CNS is very easy dare I say pleasant considering the short walk outdoors, provided the weather is good.
• Let’s hope that with SQ moving CNS to a widebody it will provide the necessary nudge for the intl lounge to reopen.
• Shame for the meals, pro-orders would really help here be it for quantity but also for service timings.
• I found the service to be absolutely delightful in business, glass was never empty but this probably depends mostly on the crew.
• The timings definitely are to the benefit of Tokyo originating holiday goers. Haneda does have quite a few amenities like an onsen than can make time pass more. Agreed that lounge access would be the holy grail but note that because of how crowded the ANA lounges are, my experience is that showers aren’t assured.
• Completely agreed with the lavatory situation, my flights where on the -700 and nobody dared cross the plexiglass wall and patiently queued at the back. Its purely psychological but it works and a half baked plastic cutout hanging from the luggage rack won’t do.
• CNS definitely needs a lounge, that place is a mess. During my layover the 3 places that I found decent were the international terminal area which emptied very quickly and went dead silent. Infront of the domestic terminal, the weather in Cairns is usually very pleasant and I found myself spending some time basking in the sunlight. Great feeling after a long flight. Or you can go to the upper floor of the domestic terminal, up the escalators and before entering the lounge precinct there is some seating with power plugs to charge up. Much quieter up there.

I think you summed up the problems well, even though I’m a bit less critical of the 737 as I ended up enjoying my redeye quite a lot. I really think theres scope the tighten up the schedule so it doesn’t lead to 4h connections anymore but I guess VA is trying to push the SYD and MEL crowd to NH.

 

[bcworld]

• Let’s hope that with SQ moving CNS to a widebody it will provide the necessary nudge for the intl lounge to reopen.

Still not going to help pax travelling on a VA operated flight who don't get lounge access on VA departures from any international airport...regardless of which partner or contract lounges are available and open.

 

[Saab34]

I wonder what the invoice cost is for Virgin for each passenger visiting a non operated lounge. Must be considerable if they are no longer interested. Don't rule out the option of some suppliers who have cut ties with Virgin 2 after becoming a creditor. Not unusual for creditors to refuse to deal with the new mob outside of a bankruptcy, who demand the cash owed back, which Virgin cannot do otherwise they breach many laws.

 

[HS-TQE]

I think you summed up the problems well, even though I’m a bit less critical of the 737 as I ended up enjoying my redeye quite a lot. I really think theres scope the tighten up the schedule so it doesn’t lead to 4h connections anymore but I guess VA is trying to push the SYD and MEL crowd to NH.

I suspect the primary aim may be inbound traffic amongst the Japanese, as per the Queensland Government's AAIF funding (subsidy) agreement with CNS and NQ Tourism also putting their money in.
This leaves VA's outbound traffic largely being VFR/Low Yield mostly from Queensland with some from SYD and MEL and to largely compete with Jetstar on the same corridor (and indirectly against other LCC/Value Carriers like AirAsia and Scoot), as opposed to competing with QF, JL or their Japanese partner in NH

 

[jase05]

The ought to ditch the exclusively business class toilet anyway. Lack of it pales in comparison to lack of lounge availability.

It's a bit odd having seemingly desirable seats in rows 3,4 and 5 that require a 27 row walk to get to the dunny...in a single aisle aircraft with one or more service carts operating.

Whilst I agree about the lounges I disagree in regards to the J loo.
Our recent ADL-DPS flight in J not one person was allowed to pass. Staff did an incredible job

 

[Must...Fly!]

I think the reality is they had the slot prior to the collapse, the aircraft were always going to come, it kind of makes sense to give it a go for x months and see what happens, while the rest of the business continues to figure out where to go from here in terms of a fleet and route plan. Ultimately (and I would say, unfortunately) I can't see widebodies in the future. I do think a 737-10 sub fleet would work well, there's no shortage of demand to other places that they could use the extra capacity/offering such as DPS and transcon runs. Nadi & Queenstown in peak seasons too. Heck, even reintroducing PER-DPS should be an easy enough win.

 

[justinbrett]

Whilst I agree about the lounges I disagree in regards to the J loo.
Our recent ADL-DPS flight in J not one person was allowed to pass. Staff did an incredible job

I think the argument is, most airlines that do this have 3, 4, 5+ rows of J.

To do with with two rows of J is getting a bit ridiculous.

 

[HS-TQE]

Can't see VA re-entering PER-DPS in the future whilst it'll all taken up by LCCs and Value Carriers (Batik Air Indonesia and Malaysia). Batik (both countries) has the J market on the wider PER-Indonesia corridor covered, even though they're barely any better than VA with their BoB in Y (Batik has better booking systems/pre-booked Food), but a lacklustre FF program when compared with VA.

 

[jase05]

I think the argument is, most airlines that do this have 3, 4, 5+ rows of J.

To do with with two rows of J is getting a bit ridiculous.

Perhaps they could offer it for Economy X in rows 3-5 but that would be about it.
What you don’t want is open slather use of the J loo

 

[Keilobyte]

The ought to ditch the exclusively business class toilet anyway. Lack of it pales in comparison to lack of lounge availability.

It's a bit odd having seemingly desirable seats in rows 3,4 and 5 that require a 27 row walk to get to the dunny...in a single aisle aircraft with one or more service carts operating.

I’m all for them moving the magnetic rope to after the first lot of EconX rows while I’m WP

 

[justinbrett]

What you don’t want is open slather use of the J loo

You don't want any kind of slathering when it comes to the loo

 

[Harrison_133]

Ultimately (and I would say, unfortunately) I can't see widebodies in the future. I do think a 737-10 sub fleet would work well, there's no shortage of demand to other places that they could use the extra capacity/offering such as DPS and transcon runs. Nadi & Queenstown in peak seasons too. Heck, even reintroducing PER-DPS should be an easy enough win.

Agree on the most part. Widebodies aren’t going to happen, that’s just a pipe dream now, but I’m not convinced a 737-10 sub fleet makes sense. If they wanted a sub fleet, they could have done it already on the -8.

The -10’s range would be pushed on CNS-HND (GC Map has the route coming in at 3152nm, Boeing lists the -10 range at 3100nm). And their use to DPS/Fiji will always be constricted by seat caps. IMO, the -10 will become a domestic workhorse. There are lots of routes on the network, not just on the triangle, that could warrant the extra capacity.

I also imagine they’ll have as many seats crammed in as possible. The closest comparison I can think of is WestJet, who are about to reconfigure their 737-8/800’s into a 2-class 180-seat layout (compared to VA’s upcoming 182 reconfig). WestJet also announced their 737-10s will have 212 seats. I’m guessing VA’s will be around that mark too.

 

[HS-TQE]

I think SYD/MEL to PER would also be ideal for the -10s, especially with a likely Y heavy LCC/Value carrier layout. Southern Capitals to OOL and/or CNS during the NW/Australian Summer would also be an ideal seasonal upgauge.

 

[twinaisle]

Love seeing the entitlement of Y pax wanting to use the forward LAV or even wait out until crew are busy to use it. I'm sure if it was in reverse and you were in J there would be complaints that Y pax were using it.

 

[Digicola]

Still not going to help pax travelling on a VA operated flight who don't get lounge access on VA departures from any international airport...regardless of which partner or contract lounges are available and open.

It’s not just about that, firstly it opens the door to lounge access if the rumours of VA being in talks are true.

Some people are also happy to pay for lounge access or are priority pass, dragonpass whateverpass holders and would like to have that option.

 

[Saab34]

Love seeing the entitlement of Y pax wanting to use the forward LAV or even wait out until crew are busy to use it. I'm sure if it was in reverse and you were in J there would be complaints that Y pax were using it.

Many carriers around the world let passengers use both.

How do pax know? Without a rope, where is the big sign?

This carrier has a very poor product and service flow on its aircraft.

 

[jase05]

Many carriers around the world let passengers use both.

Doesn’t make it right.
Nothing worse when sitting in QF J domestically and trying to have meal and a drink in peace and the J loo ends up like a revolving door where the cheapskates at the back think it’s fine to loiter around your seat.
The odd Y passenger is fine and there are reasons why it’s unavoidable sometimes but it’s gets beyond a joke sometimes.

 

[Harrison_133]

Cairns to Haneda next Tuesday (29 Aug) will be a one off 737-700 service.

The MAX will fly 2 domestic sectors instead, operating VA776 CNS-BNE on Tue 29 Aug and VA775 BNE-CNS on Wed 30 Aug, presumably positioning down to Brisbane for routine maintenance.

 

[Saab34]

When are the next MAX jets due?

 

[Harrison_133]

When are the next MAX jets due?

Soon I’d expect. 8IB was last spotted on the flight line at Renton ahead of testing, and the first domestic flying line is still scheduled to begin on 11th September, BNE-CNS/PER rotations. Remains to be seen if the latest MAX issues cause a delay or not.