Tokyo Haneda slot - how will Virgin Operate it?

[yachty]

Ah, I forgot that it was a bilateral slot pair award, additional 2 each for JP and 2 for AU carriers in 2019.

Wonder if QF would make the argument to run MEL <> HND with an a330 as the argument against VA. That was their original intention (with an a380 from SYD).

The A380 was only ever rumoured to go to HND wasn't it, once the 747s were retired? I don't think it was ever confirmed anywhere.

 

[AIRwin]

The A380 was only ever rumoured to go to HND wasn't it, once the 747s were retired? I don't think it was ever confirmed anywhere.

Pre-COVID thread:

QFi to Japan post 747 retirement

I recently booked a J award on QF26 in Jan 2021, and was interested to find this route is still scheduled for operation by a 744 into Feb next year. So much for AJ's plan to retire all 747s by year end, but it does raise questions for how QF might service Tokyo and greater Japan once the 744 is...

www.australianfrequentflyer.com.au

 

[SCM]

I still don't get why VA doesn't wet-lease something from one of it's partners like Qatar to do this route.

 

[HS-TQE]

I still don't get why VA doesn't wet-lease something from one of it's partners like Qatar to do this route.

As mentioned previously, Haneda-specific bilateral reportedly does not allow wet-leases. Has to be on their own aircraft.

 

[JasonK]

The A380 was only ever rumoured to go to HND wasn't it, once the 747s were retired? I don't think it was ever confirmed anywhere.

Haneda only allows 1x A380 on the ground at a time, so it's a bit hard for QF or any airline to use this plane there.

 

[buggy00]

You'd hope (although highly unlikely) that Virgin could argue for their case that after a potential IPO that they'd bring widebodies back in the near future.

 

[eastwest101]

You'd hope (although highly unlikely) that Virgin could argue for their case that after a potential IPO that they'd bring widebodies back in the near future.

Maybe - although I wouldn't think that the IASC would be too swayed by empty promises in the future. The problem would seem to be that in the decision making process either pre-Bain or Bain itself, was that the decision makers should have been told that saying bye bye to the A330s would also be farewell to the HND slots, it must have been the elephant in the room when the decision was made not to surrender the HND slots.

As HS-TQE says - there is no easy wet lease solution to this problem and they knew that at the time.

 

[justinbrett]

Would VA continue the route if they had to move to NRT?

(That's a rhetorical question).

 

[PERLHR]

So to be clear on this (interesting discussion) as many operators do decide to increase or change capacity (for example Air NewZealand using 330 from Wamos instead of 787 of own fleet to PER, or BA operating with Titan Airlines often on many routes, the Japanese would say no to VA utilising a different aircraft for their own reasons?

 

[HS-TQE]

As mentioned the no wet lease provisions reportedly apply only to all carriers out of Haneda (HND). If operators were to operate wet lease services to any other Japanese port (KIX, NRT, etc) they'd be subject to their own authorities (IASC in Australia's case, i.e the QF/Finnair wetleases out of SIN/BKK) as well as getting clearance from Japanese authorities.

 

[Must...Fly!]

It does impose an awkward restriction on VA though, in the sense that other carriers with established widebody fleets can easily wet lease to another port and then transpose their own metal on to HND, for example. An operational flexibility that VA does not have.

 

[Himeno]

I suspect the Queensland Government will be one of the parties involved in the submission considering their (and CNS and NQ Tourism) involvement in using private and taxpayer funds into subsidising the CNS-HND flight through the AAIF in the name of "Inbound Tourism for Queensland", which IIRC is delivering mixed results (i.e not great but not dismal at the same time).

North Queensland Tourism and recovery from Natural Disasters could potentially be used as arguments from a 'Tourism for North Queensland' perspective.

The QLD government doesn't care who operates a HND-QLD route, just that the route is operated.

 

[justinbrett]

It does impose an awkward restriction on VA though, in the sense that other carriers with established widebody fleets can easily wet lease to another port and then transpose their own metal on to HND, for example. An operational flexibility that VA does not have.

The Japanese are just trying to ensure the best use of HND slots. A 737 to a leisure destination might not meet their requirements.

If you are carrier agnostic, it's bit perverse you can't fly HND-MEL or BNE on any airline, but you can to CNS.

 

[BNEFlyer]

Haneda only allows 1x A380 on the ground at a time, so it's a bit hard for QF or any airline to use this plane there.

Not even EK flies an A380 to HND, though LH uses the 747-8.

 

[elanshin]

The Japanese are just trying to ensure the best use of HND slots. A 737 to a leisure destination might not meet their requirements.

If you are carrier agnostic, it's bit perverse you can't fly HND-MEL or BNE on any airline, but you can to CNS.

Iirc when the original decision was made, QF submitted MEL <> HND and VA did BNE <> HND.

That gave SYD, 4 slots (1x 747 QF, 2x NH 789 and 1x JL 789/773) and 1 each to MEL and BNE running 330s.

The lack of MEL slot now could be what tips them to take it away from VA and give to QF.

 

[justinbrett]

Iirc when the original decision was made, QF submitted MEL <> HND and VA did BNE <> HND.

That gave SYD, 4 slots (1x 747 QF, 2x NH 789 and 1x JL 789/773) and 1 each to MEL and BNE running 330s.

The lack of MEL slot now could be what tips them to take it away from VA and give to QF.

QF applied for both, one new for SYD, and one move MEL from NRT to HND.

It only got one, so it went to SYD.

An interesting article from 2019 before so many things changed:

Qantas Squanders Tokyo Haneda Slot In Opposition To Virgin Australia

Qantas is massaging statistics to show it should receive both Tokyo Haneda slots available to Australian carriers rather than split an allocation with Virgin Australia.

www.forbes.com

 

[yachty]

Maybe - although I wouldn't think that the IASC would be too swayed by empty promises in the future. The problem would seem to be that in the decision making process either pre-Bain or Bain itself, was that the decision makers should have been told that saying bye bye to the A330s would also be farewell to the HND slots, it must have been the elephant in the room when the decision was made not to surrender the HND slots.

True. The IASC must consider must be "satisfied, having regard to the applications made, would be of the greatest benefit to the public", in which case surely it makes no sense to again approve what can be most charitably be described as slot squatting? I would like Virgin to create some real competition, and they should do that with a widebody - I suspect the HND slot is only being held to increase the attractiveness of the airline at IPO time.

It does impose an awkward restriction on VA though, in the sense that other carriers with established widebody fleets can easily wet lease to another port and then transpose their own metal on to HND, for example. An operational flexibility that VA does not have.

They could wet lease and fly to NRT at any time, but we all know that won't happen.

 

[Bagpuss]

You'd hope (although highly unlikely) that Virgin could argue for their case that after a potential IPO that they'd bring widebodies back in the near future.

IPO is unlikely anytime soon. Post IPO is no guarantee of a widebody fleet.

The best likely outcome is Qatar purchases 25% of Virgin Australia (no IPO). They could really repaint the VA widebodies they have back to VA (I believe the interior is unchanged) and use them to fly Australia <> Doha as a start.

 

[HS-TQE]

QR only has 3 of the 5 ex-VA 77Ws. 1 is already scrapped and the remaining one with the charter operator in Turkey (ex-Russian Charter).

 

[Must...Fly!]

The Japanese are just trying to ensure the best use of HND slots. A 737 to a leisure destination might not meet their requirements.

If you are carrier agnostic, it's bit perverse you can't fly HND-MEL or BNE on any airline, but you can to CNS.

No problem with that, just pointing it out. It is a problem of VA's own making, they could've let the slot lapse.

However I am glad they have the problem, as it means the airline survived...