Using AMEX overseas where chip-cards are required?

[jamesatfish]

G'day all,

Can anyone with an AMEX card provide any experiences with the use of their cards overseas (particularly in the UK) where chip cards seem to be required these days?

I'm interested in swapping from an existing Mastercard to one of the AMEX charge cards but I had heaps of problems in the UK recently with a Mastercard where the chip PIN was not correctly set.

Given that AMEX cards don't have a chip at all, I'm curious as to whether anyone has had problems using their cards overseas where chip + PIN is now the standard way of processing credit card payments?

The nice woman I spoke to at the AMEX call centre this morning told me that they didn't offer chip cards but had never encountered issues with customers using their cards overseas.

Any advice would be most appreciated!

 

[benhadi]

Had the same problem in Asia. Seems the banking system in Aussie is behind...not too many have chip cards. My Westpac Altitude has them, but that's it. None on my AMEX, none on Citibank.

Just a note, AMEX in Asia (in Malaysia particularly) have chip cards. MOST card readers in retails stores only read chipcards there, so i could only use my Westpac MC during my entire trip there.

Considering Australia has only just introduced the use of PIN for credit card purchases, i won't expect chip cards to be introduced across the board for AUssie-issued cards anytime soon. FYI the use of PIN for credit card purchases was first introduced many many years ago...including in NZ.

BenHadi

 

[opusman]

In the UK at least a lot of merchants look at you funny but do still have the ability to do it the "old-fashioned" way. Sometimes they will want photo ID at the same time, but I've never had a card declined simply because it didn't have a chip.

( Now in machines it's a different story - I have constant issues using my Australian cards in machines overseas. )

 

[MelUser]

I queried AMEX about the same thing and they assured me that AMEX cards a slightly different (implying a cut above) other credit cards and that a signature was all that was necessary to process an American Express transaction.

 

[oz_mark]

I don't know when Amex cards will get the chip in Australia, but Citibank have said that they will be re-issuing cards over the next few months with the chip.

 

[mistado]

Hi guys, i have had this problem for the past 2 years whenever i visit malaysia in particular, but each time i tell them that it is an overseas card and they generally just swipe it as per normal..probably one out of every 10 places i might not be able to get this done..these places just dont get my business..

 

[jamesatfish]

Hmm, so it seems that the AMEX will only run me into trouble in places that need chip cards.

I'm not so worried about the bigger stores/purchases (as mistado mentioned, those places can often fall back on the swipe/signature/photo ID method) but most of the issues I encountered were for small but essential purchases (like food outlets in motorway services, or petrol stations). A couple of times I held up the queue for a few minutes whilst they struggled to find a swipe-machine and a pen, but on several occasions they just refused outright to accept the card without a chip.

Interestingly Westpac seem to be the most advanced (they actually re-issued our cards with chip versions without being prompted) and were familiar with the process of setting up the PIN on the chip and magnetic stripe.

Commonwealth would only issue a chip card if we reported our old card as 'damaged', and even then they didn't set the chip PIN correctly so it was useless overseas anyway.

MelUser - I felt the same tone when I called AMEX this morning - they seemed genuinely shocked that anyone would reject an AMEX card for not having a chip.

Seems like switching from CommBank to AMEX (which is what I planned to do) might be a bad option given that I make overseas transactions reasonably regularly.

 

[Dave Noble]

I queried AMEX about the same thing and they assured me that AMEX cards a slightly different (implying a cut above) other credit cards and that a signature was all that was necessary to process an American Express transaction.

Hmm, so how do they explain their chip and pin use in the UK. UK Amex has a chip

Dave

 

[Dave Noble]

G'day all,

Can anyone with an AMEX card provide any experiences with the use of their cards overseas (particularly in the UK) where chip cards seem to be required these days?

I'm interested in swapping from an existing Mastercard to one of the AMEX charge cards but I had heaps of problems in the UK recently with a Mastercard where the chip PIN was not correctly set.

Given that AMEX cards don't have a chip at all, I'm curious as to whether anyone has had problems using their cards overseas where chip + PIN is now the standard way of processing credit card payments?

I have had one retailer in the UK that didn't want to accept my non-chip visa card , but I had a copy of the visa document that details their obligation to accept non-chip cards

The UK rules are that if a card has a chip, then the chip and pin feature must be used; if a card has no chip, then swipe and sign

I would not be expecting an issue with use of the AU AMEX

Dave

 

[NM]

Hi guys, i have had this problem for the past 2 years whenever i visit malaysia in particular, but each time i tell them that it is an overseas card and they generally just swipe it as per normal..probably one out of every 10 places i might not be able to get this done..these places just dont get my business..

I have never had any problems in Malaysia, including my last visit in June. However, I only use my credit cards (Comm Bank Visa, Amex, Diners Club) at places like major department stores (e.g. Justco), Hotels, large restaurants and government services like KLIA Ekspress. The rest is all cash.

I don't think its a case of Australian banks being backwards. I think its a case of risk vs cost. There is a cost involved in issuing new cards with chips, and CC fraud in Australia is low, especially the type that would be curtailed with chipped cards. So the cost is not justified and people are looking for lower cost cards and not wanting to pay higher CC fees for the "benefit" of chips.

But in some countries where CC fraud is higher, the cost of providing chipped cards is more justified by the reduction in fraudulent use.

 

[benhadi]

I have never had any problems in Malaysia, including my last visit in June. However, I only use my credit cards (Comm Bank Visa, Amex, Diners Club) at places like major department stores (e.g. Justco), Hotels, large restaurants and government services like KLIA Ekspress. The rest is all cash.

I don't think its a case of Australian banks being backwards. I think its a case of risk vs cost. There is a cost involved in issuing new cards with chips, and CC fraud in Australia is low, especially the type that would be curtailed with chipped cards. So the cost is not justified and people are looking for lower cost cards and not wanting to pay higher CC fees for the "benefit" of chips.

But in some countries where CC fraud is higher, the cost of providing chipped cards is more justified by the reduction in fraudulent use.

Credit cards are meant to be used internationally as well as domestically. Whilst I agree that implementation of CC would come at a cost, perhaps maybe even passed down to the cardholders, you have to allow that this is the reality of the nature of credit cards. My personal opinion is that banks should absorb the cost - after all it's meant to reduce their liability by preventing fraud. Can't just remain primitive just because it's not needed "at home". Globalisation mate. Chip cards are in because they offer greater security. As far as i'm concerned that's progress.

Especially if chip-card readers are not able to read non-chip cards. Sure they have the swipe thing at the side of their machines, but multiple attempts at multiple places suggest that the machines just don't take it. In my experience, non-chip cards in Malaysia only work with MAJOR stores. And petrol stations are not part of that list. I imagine that's the case with every country that uses chip cards now. Very frustrating indeed.

 

[NM]

Credit cards are meant to be used internationally as well as domestically. Whilst I agree that implementation of CC would come at a cost, perhaps maybe even passed down to the cardholders, you have to allow that this is the reality of the nature of credit cards. My personal opinion is that banks should absorb the cost - after all it's meant to reduce their liability by preventing fraud. Can't just remain primitive just because it's not needed "at home". Globalisation mate. Chip cards are in because they offer greater security. As far as i'm concerned that's progress.

I think that the CC providers globally have a responsibility to accept both chipped and signature cards. While the CC providers still provide signature cards then they should be accepted anywhere the CC company logo is displayed. Progress - sure. But if Visa, MC, Amex should accept any card that is current whether its chipped or not. If they want to stop accepting signature cards then they need to ensure all cards, no matter where they are issued, comply with the new standards before they stop accepting them. Most cards are valid for 3 or 4 years, so that validity time sets the time frame for phasing out old technology and progressing.

Deploying card readers that cannot read the millions of non-cihip cards and not providing an alternate processing method is very poor customer service in a global economy.

 

[auriga]

I think that the CC providers globally have a responsibility to accept both chipped and signature cards. While the CC providers still provide signature cards then they should be accepted anywhere the CC company logo is displayed. Progress - sure. But if Visa, MC, Amex should accept any card that is current whether its chipped or not. If they want to stop accepting signature cards then they need to ensure all cards, no matter where they are issued, comply with the new standards before they stop accepting them. Most cards are valid for 3 or 4 years, so that validity time sets the time frame for phasing out old technology and progressing.

Deploying card readers that cannot read the millions of non-cihip cards and not providing an alternate processing method is very poor customer service in a global economy.

The merchants should accept all versions of credit cards, but unfortunately some don't. To avoid us being inconvenienced while overseas, the banks and Amex should really move on, and give us chip cards.

 

[pauly7]

Can someone explain to me exactly how the chip increases the security of your card?

 

[Mal]

Can someone explain to me exactly how the chip increases the security of your card?

Where a card is chip enabled, and chip use is enforced (eg UK/Malaysia), then the merchant takes responsibility if the mag strip is scanned and fraud occurs. Magnetic strips are easily copied onto other cards (even hotel room keys!). The Chips themselves are extremely difficult to copy due to the technologies used.

So chip+chip use enforced = less fraud. However, fraud takes on many different hats. Chips don't stop telephone/internet fraud, nor do they prevent someone from snooping and getting your pin and stealing your card. Also, not all ATM's actually enforce the use of a chip, so a (mag strip) copied card+pin number could lead to fraudulant transactions.

 

[oz_mark]

Chip+PIN is not inherently more secure that a signature, but it does allow the card issuers to push the liability onto merchants or even the card holder more easily. Given the design of most EFTPOS machines, I would suggest that snooping on others while typing their PIN in is quite easy.

 

[pauly7]

Where a card is chip enabled, and chip use is enforced (eg UK/Malaysia), then the merchant takes responsibility if the mag strip is scanned and fraud occurs. Magnetic strips are easily copied onto other cards (even hotel room keys!). The Chips themselves are extremely difficult to copy due to the technologies used.

So chip+chip use enforced = less fraud. However, fraud takes on many different hats. Chips don't stop telephone/internet fraud, nor do they prevent someone from snooping and getting your pin and stealing your card. Also, not all ATM's actually enforce the use of a chip, so a (mag strip) copied card+pin number could lead to fraudulant transactions.

Thanks Mal.

In my opinion chip technology defeating fraud is being comepletely over exaggerated, I asked because I was phoned up by my provider about the move and I asked the same question and the response was so diluted I almost wondered why they are bothering!

 

[medhead]

The merchants should accept all versions of credit cards, but unfortunately some don't. To avoid us being inconvenienced while overseas, the banks and Amex should really move on, and give us chip cards.

Actually, what Visa, and possibly MC and AMEX (only checked visa last time I was O/S), have done is made in a condition of the merchant agreement that they must accept non-chipped cards.

If any merchant refuses your card you should report the merchant to Visa (and possibly the others). Visa will then take action such as kiciking them out of the visa system. If any merchant refuses a visa tell them that the agreement says they must accept the visa and that you'll report them if they don't.

 

[AnonymousCoward]

Chip+PIN is not inherently more secure that a signature, but it does allow the card issuers to push the liability onto merchants or even the card holder more easily. Given the design of most EFTPOS machines, I would suggest that snooping on others while typing their PIN in is quite easy.

chip+PIN is inherently more secure. How much more secure might be debateble, but it is definately more secure.

What does a security system need to implement at a minimum? You need to have an identifier ("I am X") and an authenticator ("here's my proof"). With a smartcard system, duplicating the identifier is far more difficult, with today's technology, than duplicating the mag strip on a swipe card.

And whilst it's possible to "snoop" and capture someone's PIN, a signature can be any arbitrary scrawl once you've duplicated the identifier on a mag strip card.

In every possible way, a mag strip + signature is easier to defraud.

And consider card-not-present transactions. Smart card readers can use your smart card chip to validate your identity. Replicating that with mag strip cards is difficult.

 

[moa999]

On a recent trip to Europe my non-chipped cards (both Wizard Mastercard and Amex) were only rejected once.

Had not problems through the UK, although restaurants acted a bit strangely when I wasn't prompted for PIN (all restuarants have portable machines that they bring over to the table for you to PIN -- much more secure as card doesn't leave your view)

Problem was with an automated ticket machine at Monaco station on the SNCF. Had absolutely no luck, as did an American standing next to me. Managed to use the machine using my chipped Woolworths Card.