Using Points for Classic Awards

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killbill2

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Jun 12, 2009
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I'm about to [try to] use points for the first time.

The plan is a flight ex Brisbane> London and return Paris> Brisbane in December 11. Playing around with the calculator it appears the return leg has seats available but there do not appear to be any London seats available on 2 December when I want them.

However it appears I can get a seat on Cathay from Bne>HK>London>Paris at that time.

My questions are:
. can I book that and just get off at Heathrow or would I have to catch a flight back
. I assume there probably were seats available but they were snapped up. How far in advance should one start looking for seats? I thought 8 months would be OK.

Thanks
 
I guess it depends on what class you are booking. I had trouble getting a J seat from LHR for 28 Feb-March & ended up on BA. The seats are released about 350 days before & go probably go fairly quickly but other members will be able to give more specific advice. Have you thought about an Any Seat Award if no classic Awards.
 
Hi killbill2 - welcome to AFF

Do you have Frequent Flyer status with Qantas? The higher your status, generally the easier it is for one to find seats. This is because QF (Qantas) have a "tiered" system in place that allows Platinums to see the most award seats, and Bronze members the least. So if you are a Bronze member and you see no award seats for a flight, it may not be because there are no more left, but rather you need to be a higher status member to see and book them. Platinums additionally can call Qantas to request seats in the hope they may be opened up for them (it is not guaranteed and attracts the Telephone Assistance Fee, but in a pinch it is a good option).

Also, if you are searching for more than one seat, or if you are searching for seats in a premium cabin (i.e. Business or First), then the odds get considerably thinner.

Unfortunately most airlines have "protections" in place such that you can't just book, say, Brisbane-Hong Kong-London-Paris, fly to London, forget (i.e. no-show for) the London-Paris leg, and get away with it. Some will say the airlines may have no recourse, others say it can't be done but can't confirm the consequences (some suggest that the airline will demand a fare difference between what you flew and what you bought). Either way, it isn't worth it. Either enjoy another stop or find a cheap way to get back to your destination of choice.

Award seats are released 353 days in advance, so this is the earliest you can book them. For very popular routes like anything in Australia to London (or the other way around), it may not be surprising that award seats will disappear quickly. This is even more so if the period is during a peak, e.g. school holidays. On the other hand, it is quite possible (even as a Bronze) to book seats less than a week in advance, and have some options (obviously, it is easier to find such seats during a non-peak travel period and on a route which is not so "popular"). So there is no hard and fast rule as to how long should be enough time in advance to find seats, but generally the more popular the route and depending on the travel season you want to book in, the more savvy and faster you'll need to be in checking and booking award seats.

The other option is to try Any Seat Awards. Some may be priced close to the Classic Award level (especially if you select a fare and then pay only the minimum amount of points and the balance cash). Some options may be slightly above the Classic Award level (again, try minimum points and balance cash) and may be a tolerable option. Some options may not be favourable at all, but that again is all part of the game.
 
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sorry, adding on: is it possible to upgrade an existing J Classic Award to a JASA.

edit: think I found the answer - no.
 
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Thanks for the replies.

I am a Bronze member so I guess I am at the bottom of the pile.

I just rang Qantas to ask the specific question. I was told that I could "put at risk" my return journey. Why? Because once I was flagged as a "no show" on the Lon>Paris leg it is possible they would cancel my return flight.

When I asked if I could avoid that by simply phoning Qantas and confirming my return leg, the answer was - well - somewhat evasive. He simply said I shouldn't "risk" it.

Is anyone aware of actual instances where this has happened or is Qantas just trying to "pull my chain" [as the Americans would say]?

I looked at the Points Plus Pay option but there seems to be little saving there at all on an actual one way ticket!

Am I better off just paying the fee over the phone and getting a Qantas agent to lock me into one?

As my first venture into actually using FF points, I have to say there seems an element of smoke and mirrors about the "real" benefits.

Many thanks
 
I just rang Qantas to ask the specific question. I was told that I could "put at risk" my return journey. Why? Because once I was flagged as a "no show" on the Lon>Paris leg it is possible they would cancel my return flight.

When I asked if I could avoid that by simply phoning Qantas and confirming my return leg, the answer was - well - somewhat evasive. He simply said I shouldn't "risk" it.

Is anyone aware of actual instances where this has happened or is Qantas just trying to "pull my chain" [as the Americans would say]?

The practice you describe is called "throw away ticketing", i.e. purchase a ticket but only fly part of the trip, throwing away the remaining sectors by basically no-showing.

They won't tell you the specific consequences and it is likely those phone agents don't know. Either that or (and this is a genuine reason - "rock and a hard place" dilemma) they are not in a position to tell you that you can't do it, because no one can stop you from doing it, and they cannot tell you what will happen to you, because any number of things could happen to you - including nothing. For the agent to tell you the consequences and nothing happens, or the wrong thing happens, would later be construed as a lie. Even if they said, "<such and such> may happen to you," if nothing happens or something not covered within the <such and such> happens, again you will think it's a lie. So the easiest way out is to say not much except "don't do it".

The anecdotal evidence around suggests that some people will not be caught in throw away ticketing practices. This seems especially true if you have no further travel on the same ticket. On the other hand, airlines that catch passengers practising throw away ticketing may do any number of things, from cancelling other tickets, forcing payment of fare difference or blacklisting. Now some of these may be legally contestable (especially in the EU, where consumer groups have been forcing airlines to become a lot clearer on throw away ticketing, i.e. if it is against the rules then make it so and comply with EU consumer laws), however at best remember that you will need to be ready to defend yourself (even if you are a shoo-in to win a case, it still requires considerable groundwork).

Even if you do it and legally exonerate your actions, the airline can still blacklist you (which you may not mind at all, mind you).

Basically you can avoid all of these headaches by not doing it. I must stress that I only did some limited searching and uncovering a few anecdotes. Do not take any of the above as binding or legal advice. I will stress again - if you choose to do throw away ticketing, you may not get caught at all. If you do get caught, I do not know what may happen to you - it may include nothing and it may (not will) include blacklisting.

Am I better off just paying the fee over the phone and getting a Qantas agent to lock me into one?

Depends on how important the tickets are to you. If you really, really want them, and you can't find them, then definitely it is worth it. Considering how difficult it is to get seats on the route you chose and perhaps at the time you selected, you may never be able to find seats on that unless you take this offer.

I think it's not bad Qantas found something for you. Sometimes they will simply confirm that you found nothing (and their "screen will tell them the same"), and you're simply out of luck. Here you're being given an option, albeit a more expensive one (i.e. paying the assistance fees). You should weigh up whether the extra costs in assistance fees (points or cash) will be better than simply paying the airfares outright in cash.

As my first venture into actually using FF points, I have to say there seems an element of smoke and mirrors about the "real" benefits.

QFF are quite sparing with awards as it would seem, although again I emphasise that you have picked a popular route and period of travel.

Also, for those who are of higher status, it generally gets easier to find and book award seats. This is intended to allow more loyal QFF members to access seats which may otherwise be snapped up faster by lower status members who may simply accumulate masses of points (e.g. through extensive credit card spend).

Try another period of the year or another sector - you should find that you can book awards at those times. They don't match what or when you want, though, simply because of the demand in the dates and destinations that you want to book (both for cash tickets and award tickets - and if you can get people buying cash tickets without trying, then why would you open up too many award tickets?)
 
Try another period of the year or another sector - you should find that you can book awards at those times. They don't match what or when you want, though, simply because of the demand in the dates and destinations that you want to book (both for cash tickets and award tickets - and if you can get people buying cash tickets without trying, then why would you open up too many award tickets?)

Thanks. You have been very generous with your time here.

Can I ask this.

1. You require 128,000 for a Classic Award flight to Europe return. When I looked at the Any Seat option, a seat from Paris>Bne was about 145,000 on way [inclusive of taxes etc]. Would I gain further value for my points using the Points & Pay option ?

2. If I want to try to use points via Qantas' partners, is that done via their websites or via the QFF one? I'd like to look at Cathay options.

3. Finally, I can buy tickets [there are 4 of us going and I am trying to co-ordinate flights] via Cathay direct for about $1960 return. Qantas is about $2350 each. If I use FF points for a return flight to Paris, I use 128,000 points and pay about $550 in taxes etc, also up for a flight back to London which would be about $100 - a total of $650. Cathay = $7840 + all points retained; Qantas = $7700 [with 128,000 points used]. I'd say I am better off buying Cathay and using the QFF points to buy say $1000 worth of Woolies grocery or Caltex petrol vouchers. Agreed?

4. you describe QFF as "sparing" in their benefits [a nice piece of understatement]. Are any of the major airlines out of Australia significantly more generous and/or flexible?

Tha ks again.

PS: Do QFF points expire?
 
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Keep playing with the booking system. Also investigate an award seat travelling with other OW partners besides CX - eg: JL (via Narita) or BA. Call the QFF Service Centre, I don't think there's any 'cost' until you commit to a booking. They might find something workable. (We found them really patient & helpful in finalising our itinerary last week.)
For me, the system works, but there's just a lot of knowledge to pickup on how to best use it (this Forum is very helpful for that).
If you are accumulating points regularly, the points will not expire (but there is an inactivity clause from memory).
 
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The award flights are there - you just need to be a bit more imaginative. First try BNE-SIN and SIN-LHR as separate legs in a muti-city award. You may have a slightly longer layover time than normal. Also try flights via BKK and HKG. You can also try flights via the US i.e. BNE-LAX/LAX-LHR. That will offer some interesting routes and still only 64000pts if you stick to QF/AA. Similar options are available for your return e.g. CDG-LAX and LAX-BNE. You should find something to suit you.
 
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