What’s wrong with this QFF itinerary?

[spunkarooney]

I’m trying to book the following itinerary but am getting that generic “could not find a fare” error.


Is there anything glaringly wrong with the following? All flights are available (period mid-January to early-March).

1. Newcastle → Brisbane
2. Brisbane → Singapore (Stopover)
3. Singapore → Skopje (Stopover)
4. Skopje → Warsaw (Stopover)
5. Warsaw → Tenerife (Stopover)
6. Tenerife → Singapore
7. Singapore → Brisbane
8. Brisbane → Newcastle

The ports are shown exactly as I’m entering them into the online booking system.

Is there anywhere I can see the exact fare rules? That way I can plan my trip to fit into what is acceptable. I’m sick of this hit and miss on the site (that is, allowing you to go right through to the end before telling you that a selected itinerary is disallowed).

Any assistance would be appreciated.

 

[medhead]

Singapore → Skopje (Stopover)
Skopje → Warsaw (Stopover)

At a guess I would say there is a problem with this. Are there any Oneworld airlines or qantas partners that fly these routes?

Try booking them separately and see what happens.

 

[spunkarooney]

At a guess I would say there is a problem with this. Are there any Oneworld airlines or qantas partners that fly these routes?

Try booking them separately and see what happens.

Based on different booking options I’ve tried that take me through to the payment stage, it seems to have a problem when I go to Warsaw and Tenerife. It doesn’t seem to like me doing those together. Excluding one of the aforementioned destinations allows me to go through to the payment stage.

Again, where can I find out more information about the fare rules?

If I phoned QFF do you think they’ll be knowledgeable enough to able to explain this to me, or do you reckon I’d receive general call centre waffle?

 

[medhead]

Based on different booking options I’ve tried that take me through to the payment stage, it seems to have a problem when I go to Warsaw and Tenerife. It doesn’t seem to like me doing those together. Excluding one of the aforementioned destinations allows me to go through to the payment stage.

Again, where can I find out more information about the fare rules?

If I phoned QFF do you think they’ll be knowledgeable enough to able to explain this to me, or do you reckon I’d receive general call centre waffle?

Well that is a strange result. As I mentioned, I really was guessing on the problem. I've experimented with putting together various itineraries and usually any issue relates to a lack of oneworld carriers on the route. But what you've found with warsaw and tenerife seems to rule out that as a problem.

I really can't help with the various fare rules. But what kind of fare do you expect this to be? Perhaps too many stopovers, What if you take out the sin stopover?

I'd suggest ringing QF, I'm sure they can help. Useless someone (anyone) else, who would know more than me about various fare rules, can provide some guidance.

 

[spunkarooney]

Well that is a strange result. As I mentioned, I really was guessing on the problem. I've experimented with putting together various itineraries and usually any issue relates to a lack of oneworld carriers on the route. But what you've found with warsaw and tenerife seems to rule out that as a problem.

I really can't help with the various fare rules. But what kind of fare do you expect this to be? Perhaps too many stopovers, What if you take out the sin stopover?

I'd suggest ringing QF, I'm sure they can help. Useless someone (anyone) else, who would know more than me about various fare rules, can provide some guidance.

All of the above comes out at 140,000 points plus taxes. Booking any part separately dramatically increases the points requirement.

As per earlier in this thread, taking out either Warsaw or Tenerife still leaves the points at 140,000 and importantly, I can take it through to passenger then payment stages.

Singapore is not a must have (I just want to do some shopping there and in Kuala Lumpur – I’ll do Jetstar from Singapore to Kuala Lumpur and return). But even if I take Singapore out of the equation I still have the same issue. Strange.

I wish that QFF site was a little bit more interactive and I wish that detailed rules were available – for transparency. Additionally, there do appear to be some inconsistencies between some of the pages – the result of poor design and user acceptance testing, I guess.

I’ll phone Qantas tomorrow (too tired now) and see what they say. I do hope I don’t get someone that will try and fob off my inquiry.

 

[Mal]

Sounds like the booking system is attempting to price it as an oneworld award, which maxes out at 142,500 points for up to 35000 miles/5 stopovers.

Frequent Flyer - Using Points - Qantas & Partner Classic Awards - Points Tables

See also 14.5 here: Frequent Flyer - About the Program - Terms & Conditions

That's only my quick guess and could be wrong.

 

[JohnK]

1. Newcastle → Brisbane
2. Brisbane → Singapore (Stopover)
3. Singapore → Skopje (Stopover)
4. Skopje → Warsaw (Stopover)
5. Warsaw → Tenerife (Stopover)
6. Tenerife → Singapore
7. Singapore → Brisbane
8. Brisbane → Newcastle

The ports are shown exactly as I’m entering them into the online booking system.

This has happened to me in the past? One way around the issue could be to try splitting some of the routes via an intermediate airport?

So instead of inputing Warsaw → Tenerife (Stopover) try inputing something like Warsaw → London/Madrid and then London/Madrid → Tenerife (Stopover). Just keep trying until you get a valid itinerary.

 

[spunkarooney]

Sounds like the booking system is attempting to price it as an oneworld award, which maxes out at 142,500 points for up to 35000 miles/5 stopovers.

Frequent Flyer - Using Points - Qantas & Partner Classic Awards - Points Tables

See also 14.5 here: Frequent Flyer - About the Program - Terms & Conditions

That's only my quick guess and could be wrong.

Thanks.

It’s definitely a oneworld Classic Award as hardly any of the flights are actually with Qantas.

I guess it’s a booking that must be made over the phone. http://www.qantas.com.au/fflyer/dyn/program/usingPoints/pointsTables#jump3 shows that “Note: Includes Assisted Award booking fee.” so maybe I won’t be charged any extra fee (2,500 points) for the phone booking.

In the end, it would be best for all if Qantas made the web booking as flexible as that available to its telephone agents.

What I’ll do is check date and flight availability online, set it all out on my screen, then phone Qantas and see what they say with regard to points and ticketing.

I’d love to do all that for just 140,000 points as a SYD/SKP/SYD (without the bits I’ve added in the itinerary above) is also 140,000.

 

[spunkarooney]

This has happened to me in the past? One way around the issue could be to try splitting some of the routes via an intermediate airport?

So instead of inputing Warsaw → Tenerife (Stopover) try inputing something like Warsaw → London/Madrid and then London/Madrid → Tenerife (Stopover). Just keep trying until you get a valid itinerary.

Interesting idea.

The Skopje / Warsaw flights are via Bucharest and the Warsaw / Tenerife were via Madrid or London so I’ll try splitting it along those lines.

The other potential problem that I thought of: could it be the direction of flight? I guess that it shouldn’t really matter as it’s a multi-city booking, not a return.

Oh, the painfully slow process. I’ll report back.

Thanks for your suggestions all!

 

[oz_mark]

Not transferring through one airport too often somewhere along the line?

 

[Mal]

I tried a test booking using:

Newcastle → Singapore (Stopover)
Singapore → Skopje (Stopover)
Skopje → Warsaw (Stopover)
Warsaw → Tenerife (Stopover)
Tenerife → Newcastle

And it fell over, just like you experienced (behaved very weirdly - just dropped my flights after it had built them up, and went to the final sector and asked me to select flights there only).

I'll keep having a look. Agree it's a tedious process.

 

[spunkarooney]

Not transferring through one airport too often somewhere along the line?

Bucharest perhaps, but not by choice.

I’m about to start to tediously try many options.

I’ll report back anything of note.

 

[JohnK]

Via Bucharest or Budapest?

You are allowed 2 transits at the one airport and a third visit needs to be a stopover.

 

[spunkarooney]

Via Bucharest or Budapest?

You are allowed 2 transits at the one airport and a third visit needs to be a stopover.

I'm sorry, yes, via Budapast.

Aside from the 2 x transit and 1 x stopover maximum at any one airport, what are the limits on extra stops within Europe?

 

[JohnK]

I'm sorry, yes, via Budapast.

Aside from the 2 x transit and 1 x stopover maximum at any one airport, what are the limits on extra stops within Europe?

I don't think there are any limitations as long as you meet the other guidelines.

A couple of years ago I did -ORD-LHR-(ATH)-(LHR)-(FRA)-HEL-ZRH-HEL-BRU-LHR-HKG-....

 

[spunkarooney]

Now, we all know fares are complex beasts but this is ridiculous.

I have tried various permutations of my preferred itinerary (including switching around Warsaw and Tenerife) all to no avail.

Really, I feel that Qantas isn’t providing enough information to allow me to construct a trip that remains within the fare rules.

Additional errors I have received include:

· “A Flight you have selected is not valid for this promotion because it is not listed as an Included Flight”

o Note that I was not trying to avail myself of any specific promotion, nor can I see any that are currently available or applicable to this itinerary.
o In fact, I can’t see any international redemption promotions on offer. Have I missed something?
​

· “A maximum of 16 segments permitted for an award itinerary”

o I accept that this is a fair limitation (even though it is not of my choosing that there are that many segments – more a result of the lack of direct flights between my chosen ports)
o I don’t accept that we’re not told in advance that this limit applies. Is this limitation written down anywhere in the rules? I don’t recall seeing it.
​

I still haven’t phoned Qantas, but am just about to.

Qantas, if you are reading this, please give us some more information. Also, can you do something about seemingly generic messages like:

· “We could not find fare for the requested itinerary (5685 UI)

o Presumably “UI” relates to “user interface”.
​

 

[Mal]

Qantas, if you are reading this, please give us some more information. Also, can you do something about seemingly generic messages like:

Yeah, their error messages are shocking. As is their usage of all of your personal details - including FF number, pin, surname, phone number etc - in the URL of the error message (something that they've fixed before, but it seems to have come back).

The 16 flight limit I believe is pretty standard with electronic tickets, indeed it's the one used for OW RTW tickets as a limit. I think the number can be higher, but it's the limit they want to use.

Good luck with getting the itinerary sorted.

 

[spunkarooney]

OK, after 33 minutes and 33 seconds on the phone to Qantas (including hold and wait time), this is what I have to report.

Regarding the “5685 UI” error:

· Is also known as “5685 2201” internally and relates to booking BA (British Airways) and IB (Iberia) flights on the same itinerary.
· It is an error which has been known to Qantas since 01/10/2007.
· I can book my requested itinerary over the phone and because of the error I will not be charged the booking fee (even though I’m pretty sure none is applicable in this instance anyway - see above re “Includes Assisted Award booking fee”).
· It might, just might, be possible to get around this to separate out the BA and IB flights into separate trips within the one itinerary – something I’m yet to try.
​

I questioned what other rules were there, or what else did I need to consider when booking such a trip:

· Maximum return miles of 35,000 (this is on the Qantas site http://www.qantas.com.au/fflyer/dyn/program/usingPoints/pointsTables#jump3)
· I have unlimited transfers

o This is good to know except that it doesn’t seem to work with the “maximum of 16 segments” error previously discussed in this thread.
o I don’t recall seeing this on the Qantas site.
​

· A maximum of 5 stops (a stop is considered being in one location greater than 23 hours and 59 minutes).

o For the record, my preferred itinerary has 4 stops.
o I don’t recall seeing this on the Qantas site.
​

What was not mentioned to me was that I can only have a “maximum of 16 segments”.

My conclusion:

· Aside from the initial wait time, Qantas handled my call very well.
· Qantas needs to provide a dot point check list of the main rules applicable to flight awards
· Qantas should also provide more detailed information on all other rules, and on any special rules or issues, which may apply e.g. the BA/IB issue.
· Qantas should also remove all generic error codes from its web booking engine.

o This will result in reduced calls to the call centre and
o Allow customers to workaround any potential issue as often schedules and timings are flexible.
​

 

[medhead]

My understanding, is that the 16 segment limit is the limit for e-ticketing. Some xONE used to be able to go to 20 segments if issued on a paper ticket. But at some stage in the last 2 years I believe that they ahve phased out paper tickets and everything is now e-ticket and hence limited to 16 segments.

 

[oz_mark]

The terms and conditions list the main limitations, including the 35,000 mile restriction and 5 stopovers.

14.5 Qantas & Partner Classic Awards - oneworld Award booking conditions
14.5.1 A oneworld Award is a Classic Award Itinerary that includes travel on at least two oneworld Alliance Airlines other than Qantas and does not include any travel on any airline that is not a oneworld Alliance Airline.
14.5.2 Classic Awards using the oneworld Classic Award table must be no more than a distance of 56,315 kilometres (35,000 miles). Longer journeys must be broken into separate Itineraries.
14.5.3 A one way oneworld Award Itinerary will be charged as a return Itinerary. oneworld Award Itineraries finishing in a port other than the port of origin must include the distance to return directly to the port of origin when calculating the number of Points required to redeem the Flight Award and the maximum distance for the Itinerary.
14.5.4 The following Stopover conditions apply:
(a) up to five free Stopovers are permitted;
(b) additional Stopovers are not permitted;
(c) only one Stopover is permitted in any one city in the Itinerary; and
(d) only two Transfers may be taken at any one city in the Itinerary.
14.5.5 Surface Segments are permitted as part of oneworld Award Itineraries, but the distance between the disembarkation point and the next embarkation point will be included in the Award Point zone calculation for that Itinerary.
14.5.6 Where mixed-class travel is booked, the whole Itinerary will be calculated using the Points level for the highest class booked.