What "exactly" is the Qantas network?

[zeiron]

Hi All,
I have a QF domestic booking that I will be canceling and putting the value of the non refundable fare into credit for use at a later time. The QF website states that, the value must be used within 12 months of the original ticketing date for travel on the "QF network". I wanted to use the value toward some internal US flights and was advised by the agent that I could do this, so long as I flew on QF coded AA flights in order to meet the "QF network" requirement. As it turns out, QF do not offer a fare for sale between the 2 points that I need to fly between and it also has travel restrictions on US internal QF codeshares, that can only be sold on a ticket with QF international segments and not simply in conjunction with a QF international ticket (like a visit USA airpass). QF are happy to sell me the required flights, with AA flight numbers and the corresponding AA fare, on their (081) ticket stock, but I can not use the credit as valid payment.
I will never fly QF again (due to other reasons) and am unwilling to lose the credit of approx $1000, so my question is, what "exactly" constitutes the QF network and what other options might be available?

 

[GT351]

Includes jet star and regional flights

 

[markis10]

Any QF/JQ flight number should do the trick I would imagine.

 

[zeiron]

Any QF/JQ flight number should do the trick I would imagine.

That's what I thought and was told by the agent, but apparently it must be a QF fare on a QF coded flight on QF ticket stock. I'm wondering if it's worth pursuing the issue, as it seems QF have T&C's that they interpret in their own special way to suit themselves. I have always understood a QF flight to be a "QF xyz" flight. Despite it not being clearly expressed or explained in their own T&C's, they think it means whatever they WANT it to mean to the exclusion of any other meaning a normal person would interpret!

 

[oz_mark]

Any QF/JQ flight number should do the trick I would imagine.

A Qantas credit voucher can't be used for a JQ flight (there is a note about that on one of the pages)

 

[Nigelinoz]

A Qantas credit voucher can't be used for a JQ flight (there is a note about that on one of the pages)

Yep.

Bookings created at qantas.com or via Qantas Telephone sales for Qantas flight departures commencing from Australia only. A credit voucher will be issued based on the terms and conditions of the fare purchased.

Note: Multi city, round the world bookings and Jetstar flights will not be eligible for credit vouchers.

Bookings eligible for a credit voucher
Cheers
N'oz

 

[aoz48x]

My understanding of using these vouchers in the past has always been that they are available for use on flights operated by either QF or JQ as they are owned by the Qantas group. And the Qantas group want to keep any revenue within the group. It would be a push to want to use them on a QF flight nbr operated by at third party (ie AA) as any revenue would be then passed onto AA not kept by QF

 

[zeiron]

My understanding of using these vouchers in the past has always been that they are available for use on flights operated by either QF or JQ as they are owned by the Qantas group. And the Qantas group want to keep any revenue within the group. It would be a push to want to use them on a QF flight nbr operated by at third party (ie AA) as any revenue would be then passed onto AA not kept by QF

I agree with you 100% that QF wish to keep the revenue within the QF group, but do you think this is expressed clearly in their T&C's? From my perspective, it is not, but it would be interesting to hear others opinions on this.
They ambiguously state that the credit can be used on the "QF network" but do not make any representations as to what that is. I asked if I could use it on FJ from MEL-NAN on the QF codeshare, and was told that I can, and I can use it on BA from SYD-LHR on the QF codeshare also so I fail to see how we as consumers can agree to T&C's that they say means one thing when it quite clearly can have several very different meanings.
Thoughts?

 

[oz_mark]

I agree with you 100% that QF wish to keep the revenue within the QF group, but do you think this is expressed clearly in their T&C's? From my perspective, it is not, but it would be interesting to hear others opinions on this.
They ambiguously state that the credit can be used on the "QF network" but do not make any representations as to what that is. I asked if I could use it on FJ from MEL-NAN on the QF codeshare, and was told that I can, and I can use it on BA from SYD-LHR on the QF codeshare also so I fail to see how we as consumers can agree to T&C's that they say means one thing when it quite clearly can have several very different meanings.
Thoughts?

My understanding has been that the Qantas network comprises those flights that have QF as the marketing carrier (i.e. have a QF flight number).

 

[zeiron]

My understanding has been that the Qantas network comprises those flights that have QF as the marketing carrier (i.e. have a QF flight number).

Thanks oz_mark. I think exactly the same thing.

 

[samh004]

What points were you looking to fly between?

 

[zeiron]

What points were you looking to fly between?

MIA-CUN. AA offer direct flights but QF do not codeshare on them, so i am happy to go via MCO and DFW on the following:

Dep MIA 1010 Arr MCO 1110 QF4599
Dep MCO 1350 Arr DFW 1535 QF4504
Dep DFW 1645 Arr CUN 1915 QF4335

Dep CUN 1715 Arr DFW 2005 QF4346
Dep DFW 0925 Arr MIA 1300 QF4582
Dep MCO 1405 Arr MIA 1515 QF4596.

the only sticking point is that QF do not offer a fare for MIA-CUN and therefore I cannot use the credit as payment. But seeing as though this is not expressly implied in their T&C's it is therefore, in my opinion, not a valid restriction.

 

[samh004]

I’m guessing they can’t sell those fares, much like they can’t sell the leg between LAX and JFK on it’s own, it’s got to be part of an international ticket, so while those flights are QF flights, they’d be bound by someone else’s T&C’s on the matter

 

[zeiron]

I’m guessing they can’t sell those fares, much like they can’t sell the leg between LAX and JFK on it’s own, it’s got to be part of an international ticket, so while those flights are QF flights, they’d be bound by someone else’s T&C’s on the matter

I have since come to the same conclusion, but irrespective of this, if its is not a part of the T&C's then do I need to abide by it? as I thought the T&C's were the be all and end all of the contract. QF cannot add additional T&C's or seek to define terms after that fact and claim that they also form part of the original contract. Given that this is the case, is it unreasonable to expect them to sell me the AA fare and take my QF credit as payment?
They may very well be bound by someone elses T&C's regarding US flights, but I most certainly am not. They are best positioned to be aware of said restrictions and should make them crystal clear in their own T&C's with a simple clause along the lines of "QF network is one for which we offer QF fares and have traffic rights to operate". I must say, I am equally amazed and disappointed by the "worlds most experienced airline" and their lack of attention to detail! If im expected to abide by the actual T&C's as they have been drafted, then so too are they, irrespective of the intended meaning!

 

[oz_mark]

I have since come to the same conclusion, but irrespective of this, if its is not a part of the T&C's then do I need to abide by it? as I thought the T&C's were the be all and end all of the contract. QF cannot add additional T&C's or seek to define terms after that fact and claim that they also form part of the original contract.

If the issue is a legal one (can't sell the sectors without having an international component), then that would override anything in the T&C's anyway. T&C's can't override the law!

 

[zeiron]

If the issue is a legal one (can't sell the sectors without having an international component), then that would override anything in the T&C's anyway. T&C's can't override the law!

Im not asking QF to break the law, im just asking them to uphold their own T&C's and if they cant, for whatever reason, this must be clearly outlined in their T&C's. If it isnt (which in this case it isnt), then i would expect them to come up with another solution, ie: booking me on the AA fare instead. Unfortunately, you cant pick and choose which clauses you will keep and which you wont, its all or nothing.
I do actually have international flights with them to DFW but the issue then becomes that these additional sectors are not ticketed on the International ticket but would be in conjunction to it. Now im not going to pretend to know more about the legalities of selling internal US fares than QF and truly understand their predicament, but if they expect me to waive one of their own T&C's (that suits me) then I would like one (that suits them) waived in return, namely the requirement to book a flight on the QF network or the non refundable nature of the ticket. The thing that makes it worse, is that I KNOW what I am asking for is physically possible, its just a matter of them choosing to exercise their discretion or not and if not, then I will be more than willing to challenge them in court. My experience in the past has been that, 1 hour or so of their legal teams costs would far out weight the amount in dispute, and more importantly, they would be reluctant to have it challenged for fear of setting a precedent, so why create all this drama when their own staff concede that the T&C's are ambiguous and they understand where I am coming from? If they can see it, im certain a judge would too. Its just a shame that we get forced into doing things we wouldn't ordinarily do, but I for one am sick and tired of being treated like garbage by QF and expected to cut them slack when they cut me none!

 

[samh004]

Im not asking QF to break the law, im just asking them to uphold their own T&C's and if they cant, for whatever reason, this must be clearly outlined in their T&C's. If it isnt (which in this case it isnt), then i would expect them to come up with another solution, ie: booking me on the AA fare instead. Unfortunately, you cant pick and choose which clauses you will keep and which you wont, its all or nothing.

I’m sure they could (and might have) a clause in the T&C’s to the effect that they’re not allowed to break the law and all the conditions defer to local laws, state laws and federal laws… but you should know that, and it wouldn’t change anything in this case, you still wouldn’t be able to book those flights, and I don’t think they should be forced to book you on alternate flights, as that’s really taking the whole thing out of context.

I would assume the conditions of the voucher to mean you can do exactly what they say, so long as it’s possible, not so long as you can find a loophole and hold it against them

This is what’s making the world such a litigious place.

I would hope a judge would be smart enough to see you’re taking advantage of challenging what should be common sense to most people. And thinking about it now, you sound like a former member of AFF

 

[zeiron]

I would assume the conditions of the voucher to mean you can do exactly what they say, so long as it’s possible, not so long as you can find a loophole and hold it against them

This is what’s making the world such a litigious place.

And thinking about it now, you sound like a former member of AFF

A few points....
1:What is wrong with finding a loophole and using it to your advantage?
2:I have drawn their attention to the loophole and it is now up to them to close it, if they care to.
3:When it comes to T&C's, airlines hold us to them all the time, so why should they be exempt?
4: I can assure you I have only been an AFF member for the last few months, so have no clue who you may referring to.....

Having said all of that, I do have some good news regarding the initial problem.
QF Customer Care have seen the light and come to the party by agreeing to put my existing booking into credit, cancel the credit and transfer the value to a MCO which is valid on OW carriers. So once the paper shuffling is all done (in a few days time), I can book the flights that I require. Problem solved. All it took was some thinking outside of the square!

There is always a solution to any problem, it just depends on how much interest you have in solving it!

 

[samh004]

A few points....
1:What is wrong with finding a loophole and using it to your advantage?
2:I have drawn their attention to the loophole and it is now up to them to close it, if they care to.
3:When it comes to T&C's, airlines hold us to them all the time, so why should they be exempt?
4: I can assure you I have only been an AFF member for the last few months, so have no clue who you may referring to.....

Having said all of that, I do have some good news regarding the initial problem.
QF Customer Care have seen the light and come to the party by agreeing to put my existing booking into credit, cancel the credit and transfer the value to a MCO which is valid on OW carriers. So once the paper shuffling is all done (in a few days time), I can book the flights that I require. Problem solved. All it took was some thinking outside of the square!

There is always a solution to any problem, it just depends on how much interest you have in solving it!

In relation to your first point, there’s a difference between using a loophole to your advantage, and talk about suing the airline as you mentioned above. Pretty big difference really

 

[zeiron]

In relation to your first point, there’s a difference between using a loophole to your advantage, and talk about suing the airline as you mentioned above. Pretty big difference really

I absolutely agree with you, except to say that i dont think inadequate T&C's necessarily constitutes a loophole. The talk about suing them, was simply to uphold the T&C's as they have written them, and not what they intended them to be. Just my 2p worth.

As mentioned above , I finally had the good fortune to get an agent who had a "clue" and accepted that my argument was vaild. Whilst he was unable to do "exactly" what I wanted, he was able to think outside the square, and come up with a solution that resulted in the same outcome, which I was more than pleased with. Moral of the story... if you believe strongly enough in your position, you should argue (in the legal sense and not yelling and screaming at someone!) for it until you successfully negotiate an outcome, which is what occurred here.
Its just a shame that people nowadays aren't willing to negotiate and both sides want everything their own way, meaning there is no other option but to refer matters to the courts for adjudication. Im not saying its right, but its just the way it is.