Why are VA flights slowing down?

[Deleted member 29185]

On another thread, I made a comment that I was noticing VA flights slowing down.

I do note VA have slowed their non ATR flights down....presumably to save fuel

I think you will find the plane slowing has nothing to do with VA, going slow is not more economical,

Has anyone else noticed this?

My examples are:

BNE-ROK - Use to be circa 60 minutes, now 70 minutes on a Fokker, 75 minutes on an E-jet or 737 or 95 minutes on an ATR.
OOL-SYD - Use to be circa 60 minutes, now 90 minutes.
BNE-SYD - Use to be circa 60 minutes, now 95 minutes.
OOL-MEL - Use to be circa 120 minutes, now 175 minutes.

Is my memory playing tricks on me, or have flight times blown out? The northern flights I could imagine have been slowed to make the ATR pig seem not quite so sluggish, but not the southern sectors........comments?

 

[markis10]

In the context of published times (as opposed to in air times inferred by your previous post), the "slowing" is very much a VA thing and to do with on time arrival/departure stats while also reflecting changing conditions such as the increased ground congestion at BNE.

 

[pythonisman]

SYD-OOL/BNE/BNK is just about all I fly domestically.
Looking into past itineraries (and future ones):
OOL-SYD started at 85 minutes, SYD-OOL was 80

13/11/2005, DJ528 OOL-SYD was 85 mins
27/04/2007, DJ529 SYD-OOL was 80 mins
30/04/2007, DJ500 OOL-SYD was 85 mins

I haven't looked at every itinerary, but in 2010 both directions was scheduled at 80 mins

Looking into the future: SYD-OOL is still scheduled at 80 mins, and OOL-SYD is at 90 mins (in September and November).

If I had to guess why, (completely uneducated guess based only on a spattering of flying over the years), the OOL-SYD flights always seem to be the ones that get asked to take the fall if something is wrong in Sydney. Because it's barely an hour's flight time, if there are issues or backlog in Sydney they always seem to be asked not to leave. At least that's what they've announced over the PA time and time again when my flight's been late to board (and you've been staring at the plane on the tarmac)...

 

[medhead]

Flights from ADL also get delayed for ATC reasons in SYD. So it is not just OOL.




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[drewbles]

Airlines will also add and subtract minutes based on the weather at times of the year too. Headwinds/Tailwinds can make a big difference to flight times.

 

[medhead]

Airlines will also add and subtract minutes based on the weather at times of the year too. Headwinds/Tailwinds can make a big difference to flight times.

Indeed my flight times for the last few weeks have been 90 minutes or less going easy and 120 minutes + going west.


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[N860CR]

Legs like SYD-BNE & SYD-OOL would never have been loaded as 60 minutes as that's simply the flight time (on a good day... SYD-BNE generally ends up as 65-70 minutes in the air). The time on the schedule is gate to gate and that allows for taxi on departure and arrival. The above mentioned times are about right and inline with QF.

Virgin have been shooting themselves in the foot with BNE-ROK vv as it's generally 45 minutes in the air and they were only allowing 15 minutes for taxi at both BNE and ROK. BNE now has extensive delays (especially in the evenings) and 15 minutes doesn't cut it. Depending on who is in the tower in ROK... it can have its share of delays too!

I'm not familiar with the details of the OOL-MEL route, but again 120 minutes seems more like the flight time.

 

[muppet]

I feel they fly really slow too. I know it sounds like nonsense, but I swear - on QF if it pushes back on time, the flight will land early. With DJ I feel as if they leave on time, they fly really slow to save fuel.

Also, QF will sometimes fly fast to make up time, with DJ I feel as though if they're late they're late and that's that, same flight time.

 

[Justchecking]

I feel they fly really slow too. I know it sounds like nonsense, but I swear - on QF if it pushes back on time, the flight will land early. With DJ I feel as if they leave on time, they fly really slow to save fuel.

Also, QF will sometimes fly fast to make up time, with DJ I feel as though if they're late they're late and that's that, same flight time.

You are the first person to have an internal speedometer. Congratulations. The thing about subjectivity is that you'll confirm your own conclusions rather than see things as they really are. The block time (indicated on the intinerary) includes taxi time. So any additions in there is DJ allowing for ground delays due to conjestionn. Not changes in flight time in reality. BNE and SYD have both in recent times become a bigger problem than they ussed to be. with conjestion. If you want to be more objective about it. Time the flight from takeoff to landing only.

 

[loobloke]

I feel they fly really slow too. I know it sounds like nonsense, but I swear - on QF if it pushes back on time, the flight will land early. With DJ I feel as if they leave on time, they fly really slow to save fuel.

Also, QF will sometimes fly fast to make up time, with DJ I feel as though if they're late they're late and that's that, same flight time.

Flying slower does not necessarily save fuel - it actually costs more fuel to travel the same distance! There are optimal speeds to fly at for best fuel consumption vs distance traveled, though these are always bound by ATC directives. Also note ATC does not bias between airlines - to them each plane is just another mark on their screen.

 

[muppet]

You are the first person to have an internal speedometer. Congratulations. The thing about subjectivity is that you'll confirm your own conclusions rather than see things as they really are. The block time (indicated on the intinerary) includes taxi time. So any additions in there is DJ allowing for ground delays due to conjestionn. Not changes in flight time in reality. BNE and SYD have both in recent times become a bigger problem than they ussed to be. with conjestion. If you want to be more objective about it. Time the flight from takeoff to landing only.

If you're going to be <redacted>, at least re-read the post first.

I was talking about flight time. The route I fly has not suffered extended flight times on the itinerary. I was talking about the propensity of one airline to consistently arrive early vs the other. I also said "feel" and I stand by that statement - between CBR - MEL/SYD flights feel quicker on QF. I do not time flights.

However I accept that it's likely that once I started to think they were slower, they always felt slow.

 

[JohnK]

You are the first person to have an internal speedometer.

They are not alone.

I do not wear a watch and I hardly ever switch on my phone in flight so cannot see the time. I can actually sense the point in time we should be starting the descent and if this has not yet happened it usually means we have slowed down due to ATC or other factors and an announcement usually follows.

 

[medhead]

. Also note ATC does not bias between airlines - to them each plane is just another mark on their screen.

which is fine in theory. However 2.75 years experience says SYD ATC delays comparable DJ flights 95% of the time vs QF flights. I've lost count of the number of times DJ401 has been delayed by SYD ATC. But QF730 has been delayed once when I was on it.

Oh and I can happily report DJ are not slowing down IME.


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[markis10]

which is fine in theory. However 2.75 years experience says SYD ATC delays comparable DJ flights 95% of the time vs QF flights. I've lost count of the number of times DJ401 has been delayed by SYD ATC. But QF730 has been delayed once when I was on it.

Oh and I can happily report DJ are not slowing down IME.


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Small sample sizes don't make for good analysis, QF701 does have a slight edge according to flight stats of two minutes.

[h=2]DJ 401 On-time Performance Rating Details[/h]Overall Rating
[TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50%"][TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD="width: 45%"]

3 of 5
Average[/TD]
[TD="width: 35%"]On-time:
Avg. Delay:[/TD]
[TD="width: 20%"]77%
17 min[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[/TD]
[TD="width: 50%"]FlightStats Rating is a merit measurement considering both on-time performance and delay severity. The score, 3, shows that this flight has on-time performance characteristics better than 59% of all other flights in the FlightStats database.[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

On-time Performance
[TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50%"][TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD="width: 45%"]

1.7 of 5
Average[/TD]
[TD="width: 35%"]On-time:[/TD]
[TD="width: 20%"]77%[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[/TD]
[TD="width: 50%"]This flight has an on-time performance of 77%. Statistically, when controlling for sample size, standard deviation, and mean, this flight is on-time more often than 34% of other flights.[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Delay Performance
[TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50%"][TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD="width: 45%"]

4.3 of 5
Good[/TD]
[TD="width: 35%"]Avg. Delay:[/TD]
[TD="width: 20%"]17 min[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[/TD]
[TD="width: 50%"]This flight has an average delay of 17 minutes with a standard deviation of 25.84 minutes. Statistically, when controlling for sample size, standard deviation, and mean, this flight has delay performance characteristics better than 86% of other flights.[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]


[h=2]QF 730 On-time Performance Rating Details[/h]Overall Rating
[TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50%"][TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD="width: 45%"]

2.5 of 5
Average[/TD]
[TD="width: 35%"]On-time:
Avg. Delay:[/TD]
[TD="width: 20%"]73%
15 min[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[/TD]
[TD="width: 50%"]FlightStats Rating is a merit measurement considering both on-time performance and delay severity. The score, 2.5, shows that this flight has on-time performance characteristics better than 49% of all other flights in the FlightStats database.[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

On-time Performance
[TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50%"][TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD="width: 45%"]

0.5 of 5
Very Poor[/TD]
[TD="width: 35%"]On-time:[/TD]
[TD="width: 20%"]73%[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[/TD]
[TD="width: 50%"]This flight has an on-time performance of 73%. Statistically, when controlling for sample size, standard deviation, and mean, this flight is on-time more often than 9% of other flights.[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Delay Performance
[TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50%"][TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD="width: 45%"]

4.5 of 5
Good[/TD]
[TD="width: 35%"]Avg. Delay:[/TD]
[TD="width: 20%"]15 min[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[/TD]
[TD="width: 50%"]This flight has an average delay of 15 minutes with a standard deviation of 11.24 minutes. Statistically, when controlling for sample size, standard deviation, and mean, this flight has delay performance characteristics better than 90% of other flights.[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

 

[medhead]

Small sample sizes don't make for good analysis, QF701 does have a slight edge according to flight stats of two minutes.

Of course, all very true. But the basis of this thread is rather subjective and my experience is that I'm delayed when I get DJ401. The flight is mostly delayed to the point that earlier this year the lounge staff would tell me there is the usual 20 minute delay every week. I rarely experience the same on Qantas.

Also I'm not including today in this comment, where we are 50 minutes late with the weather in Sydney being blamed. But it is interesting that QF730 left 18 minutes late and the DJ 6 and 6:30 flights are delayed 50 and 28 minutes.

BTW the 6am QF flight is 730.


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[drron]

Just maybe they push out arrival time to try and get a better on time performance?

 

[Justchecking]

If you're going to be <redacted>, at least re-read the post first.

I was talking about flight time. The route I fly has not suffered extended flight times on the itinerary. I was talking about the propensity of one airline to consistently arrive early vs the other. I also said "feel" and I stand by that statement - between CBR - MEL/SYD flights feel quicker on QF. I do not time flights.

However I accept that it's likely that once I started to think they were slower, they always felt slow.

Please excuse my faux pas. The repeated use of the words "I feel" tended to indicate to me a less than scientific method of evaluation, and I therefore didn't put as much weight as perhaps I should have in the accuracy of the rest of your statement.

 

[JohnK]

Just maybe they push out arrival time to try and get a better on time performance?

One way of doing it but both airlines have 1h 35m listed for SYD-BNE services and flight time is hardly ever over 1h 10m. The longest taxi I have seen in SYD is ~10 minutes which leaves another ~15 minutes for the BNE taxi.

Also if they extend arrival times further that will more than likely mean less flights scheduled per day.