WSI for Western Sydney Airport

[Lynda2475]

I’d argue it’s not Sydney.

Definitely not Sydney no matter what they call it.

 

[justinbrett]

It’s ~60km from me in the East. Even further from anyone on the North Shore. But unlike getting to AVV from Melbourne CBD, there’s great tracks of greater Sydney you need to traverse to get there - which actually means that there’s a significantly bigger catchment for WSI than AVV.

Stick in a fast train and it could be ADL’s 2nd airport with QFi services…too soon?

The lack of a direct train service to the CBD is one of the main reasons it unlikely to replace SYD in the foreseeable future.

The catchment area of WSI, who are closer to it than SYD, is probably at best a population comparable to Adelaide. But to be frank, a much poorer demographic, and far fewer businesses that require access to domestic and international travel.

 

[moa999]

But it was never designed as a replacement airport.

It's not a new HKG or new IST.
Or even an attempt like NRT (mostly successful) or YMX (Montreal Mirabel - a disaster).

It's been designed as a 2nd airport, serving a mostly different catchment and providing minor relief to SYD.

 

[SCM]

If we can move all cargo operations to WSI (makes sense as it's a 24x7 airport), and some portion of local routes, then SYD be freed up to have more international routes, which would be amazing.

 

[pauly7]

Was going to say exactly the same thing. Various carriers have banks of flights during that time window out of MEL (TG, MH, SQ, FJ, CX,) so wouldn't be surprised if at least one of them might schedule a midnight service out of WSI to connect with their morning bank of flights. Before Covid, SQ used to do such a service out of SYD, leaving mid evening via CBR.

One thing to also consider is the inbound flight connections, I remember reading about a year ago that about 40% of inbound SYD full service carrier flights can connect onwards - which means that QF in particular will need some trunk routes in place to support all their interline partners onwards connection requirements (or, that traffic automatically will still be captured by SYD).

 

[RooFlyer]

I’d argue it’s not Sydney.

Western Sydney is a whole other thing.

Whatever that means. I take Western Sydney to mean the western part of ... Sydney

But anyway, WSI will service anyone who wants to be on a flight departing/arriving from that airport#. From/to Sydney CBD, Penrith, Turramurra and even Parramatta.

# Like Jetstar, as you pointed out. But I think the fuller service airlines will also push people to WSI via pricing and scheduling to free up space at SYD.

Time will tell.

 

[dajop]

One thing to also consider is the inbound flight connections, I remember reading about a year ago that about 40% of inbound SYD full service carrier flights can connect onwards - which means that QF in particular will need some trunk routes in place to support all their interline partners onwards connection requirements (or, that traffic automatically will still be captured by SYD).

Not as relevant for the carriers I mentioned (notice I didn’t mention QF), at the time of day I mentioned. Indeed they operate such services into MEL with no inbound connections at that time of night, connections for these flights happen at the respective airlines hubs.

If there was no curfew at SYD it wouldn’t even be a consideration, but as there is, it is not out of the realm of possibilities that they are at least considering such services.

 

[justinbrett]

Whatever that means. I take Western Sydney to mean the western part of ... Sydney

But anyway, WSI will service anyone who wants to be on a flight departing/arriving from that airport#. From/to Sydney CBD, Penrith, Turramurra and even Parramatta.

# Like Jetstar, as you pointed out. But I think the fuller service airlines will also push people to WSI via pricing and scheduling to free up space at SYD.

Time will tell.

It’s the established plan of the NSW government to treat Sydney as three separate cities - one of which is Western Sydney - referred to as the Western Parkland city. https://www.planning.nsw.gov.au/sites/default/files/2024-04/greater-sydney-region-plan.pdf

The lack of fast transport to the CBD will be a limiting factor for many, and is in my opinion why AVV was never a viable second Melbourne airport - it serves Geelong and the surrounding area, and LCCs.

 

[elanshin]

It’s the established plan of the NSW government to treat Sydney as three separate cities - one of which is Western Sydney - referred to as the Western Parkland city. https://www.planning.nsw.gov.au/sites/default/files/2024-04/greater-sydney-region-plan.pdf

The lack of fast transport to the CBD will be a limiting factor for many, and is in my opinion why AVV was never a viable second Melbourne airport - it serves Geelong and the surrounding area, and LCCs.

The key difference is that AVV lacks a lot of infrastructure at all levels to compare.

They're talking WSI up to have the most advanced terminal facility stuff of all airports in Australia - facial recognition stuff like in Changi or HKG etc.
They're actively targeting it to be a world clsss in airport facility.

I could see AVV being utilised more if it had aerobridges, better terminal facilities and a better connection. In fact if today if you could land at AVV, roll through the aerobridge into a nice terminal straight onto a regular (less than 15mins interval) train that takes 45mins into Southern Cross or Geelong in 30, I'd reckon you have a lot more uptake in usage.

In fact they really should look to improve AVV. MEL t2 in it's current form will really get congested even more if the city wants to continue to grow into the future. The arrivals at MEL T2 honestly is a lot worse than SYD T1 during peak periods.

 

[jase05]

The key difference is that AVV lacks a lot of infrastructure at all levels to compare.

They're talking WSI up to have the most advanced terminal facility stuff of all airports in Australia - facial recognition stuff like in Changi or HKG etc.
They're actively targeting it to be a world clsss in airport facility.

I could see AVV being utilised more if it had aerobridges, better terminal facilities and a better connection. In fact if today if you could land at AVV, roll through the aerobridge into a nice terminal straight onto a regular (less than 15mins interval) train that takes 45mins into Southern Cross or Geelong in 30, I'd reckon you have a lot more uptake in usage.

In fact they really should look to improve AVV. MEL t2 in it's current form will really get congested even more if the city wants to continue to grow into the future. The arrivals at MEL T2 honestly is a lot worse than SYD T1 during peak periods.

Definitely ambitious but eventually the plans are for WSI to be the busiest airport in the country in several decades. Time will tell but at least the government are thinking of the future and WSI will from opening date have world class facilities. Domestically it will definitely become my go to airport as it suits my needs and it will be nice to travel via Sydney and avoid the absolute debacle that SYD currently is

 

[RooFlyer]

Domestically it will definitely become my go to airport as it suits my needs and it will be nice to travel via Sydney and avoid the absolute debacle that SYD currently is

That's what I'm hoping/expecting. I travel HBA-BNE quite a bit these days and while there is a direct flight, sometimes a connecting one is better.

 

[Lynda2475]

They're actively targeting it to be a world class in airport facility.

It can never be as good as SYD based on the fact unlike SYD it is absolutely no where near Sydney proper.

I am hopeful that premium services which have F and J, and the most profitable golden triangle flights will remain at SYD; as if you visiting Sydney you will want to have fast and convenient transport to Sydney, not be trying to navigate from the very outer fringe of the outermost burbs.

A Taxi from WSI to the city at peak time could easily hit $200; and there is no door to door train service from the city, its 1-2 trains plus a switch to metro and over an hours assuming all connections are seamless which never happens on the Sydney Train network. Noting our 2 story trains are set up to accomodate luggage - no racks or storage areas.

Definitely ambitious but eventually the plans are for WSI to be the busiest airport in the country in several decades.

Maybe for freight but the location alone makes this ambition unrealistic for passenger travel.

 

[jase05]

It can never be as good as SYD based on the fact unlike SYD it is absolutely no where near Sydney proper.

I am hopeful that premium services which have F and J, and the most profitable golden triangle flights will remain at SYD; as if you visiting Sydney you will want to have fast and convenient transport to Sydney, not be trying to navigate from the very outer fringe of the outermost burbs.

A Taxi from WSI to the city at peak time could easily hit $200; and there is no door to door train service from the city, its 1-2 trains plus a switch to metro and over an hours assuming all connections are seamless which never happens on the Sydney Train network. Noting our 2 story trains are set up to accomodate luggage - no racks or storage areas.



Maybe for freight but the location alone makes this ambition unrealistic for passenger travel.

None of us have any idea what things will look like in 30-40 years time. WSI is being built for the future. Governments get canned for not thinking of the future so I’m pleased they have been proactive. The beauty is they have the land and can build for needs as the City and infrastructure grows. SYD has no room to grow so is contained to the dump of an airport it currently is.

 

[elanshin]

It can never be as good as SYD based on the fact unlike SYD it is absolutely no where near Sydney proper.

I am hopeful that premium services which have F and J, and the most profitable golden triangle flights will remain at SYD; as if you visiting Sydney you will want to have fast and convenient transport to Sydney, not be trying to navigate from the very outer fringe of the outermost burbs.

A Taxi from WSI to the city at peak time could easily hit $200; and there is no door to door train service from the city, its 1-2 trains plus a switch to metro and over an hours assuming all connections are seamless which never happens on the Sydney Train network. Noting our 2 story trains are set up to accomodate luggage - no racks or storage areas.



Maybe for freight but the location alone makes this ambition unrealistic for passenger travel.

I agree that WSI isn't built to replace SYD and as time goes on, we'll see SYD end up more like HND. Slot restricted and premium for international carriers and heavy domestic, but WSI compliment with the growth of the city.

For where I currently stay in sydney WSI won't be the airport for me but I definitely have a whole bunchof friends that WSI would be significantly closer for them to drive to.

I also feel that the low hanging fruit is still there if the government connects the leppington line into WSI and suddenly you have direct WSI to SW Sydney to SYD transfer as well as the CBD. It just won't be there on day 1.

 

[SYD]

I agree that WSI isn't built to replace SYD and as time goes on, we'll see SYD end up more like HND. Slot restricted and premium for international carriers and heavy domestic, but WSI compliment with the growth of the city.

For where I currently stay in sydney WSI won't be the airport for me but I definitely have a whole bunchof friends that WSI would be significantly closer for them to drive to.

I also feel that the low hanging fruit is still there if the government connects the leppington line into WSI and suddenly you have direct WSI to SW Sydney to SYD transfer as well as the CBD. It just won't be there on day 1.

It was a massive failure to not plan for the current airport train to continue on to the now WSI and v.v. Conspiracy theorist would have us believe that the SYD operators did a deal but I suspect it was just a lack of for sight and commitment.

At least the current metro plans will allow good feed into/out of WSI for the public and industry out that way.

None of us have any idea what things will look like in 30-40 years time. WSI is being built for the future. Governments get canned for not thinking of the future so I’m pleased they have been proactive. The beauty is they have the land and can build for needs as the City and infrastructure grows. SYD has no room to grow so is contained to the dump of an airport it currently is.

Hopefully some variation of QFs idea to consolidate OW and partner* ops over at the current T2/3 and others at T1 could improve the overall functionality of an International airport. We certainly don’t want to see a DC scenario where DCA becomes basically domestic only (some regional flights) and IAD takes all the long haul. The metro all the way to Dulles only opened last year ie 60 years after it first opened!

*the VA / QR tie up throws a spanner in the works but QR could stay put.

 

[Lynda2475]

SYD could easily be future proofed by removing the curfew (noone currently living under the flight paths can claim they didnt know SYD was there, and newer planes are quieter) and adding a floating runway out into Botany Bay ala Hong Kong.

I do not think they should have been allowed to put the word Sydney in the name, as it's ridiculously misleading.

SYD is easy to get to/from and close to major tourist hot spots and much much closer to the 4 main business centres than WSI.

 

[justinbrett]

None of us have any idea what things will look like in 30-40 years time. WSI is being built for the future. Governments get canned for not thinking of the future so I’m pleased they have been proactive. The beauty is they have the land and can build for needs as the City and infrastructure grows. SYD has no room to grow so is contained to the dump of an airport it currently is.

We don’t, but you just need to look at other cities with smaller legacy airports near the city centre, and new geeenfield airports in the outskirts.

In most cases it’s the closer legacy airport that remains the more popular airport, and governments have only made a success of the new airports by regulation (eg max route distance like LGA), slot restrictions or increased fees. Not really a win for the passenger when the outcome is forced on them against their wishes.

But for all your accolades for the government, I agree with @SYD it was a massive fail not to include heavy rail at the airport with direct services to the CBD. That could singlehandedly be the death knell in any hopes of WSI being a replacement airport for SYD.

We shall see, but SYD is so well connected into the heavy rail system, it’s often faster than taxis in the inner suburbs, WSI is going to have to offer significant savings to compete like for like. That’s why I see WSI as a supplementary domestic airport for those living out that way, I really can’t see the premium international traffic going there (except maybe one or two curfew flights) unless the government forces it. Which again, is not a great thing for pax.

 

[jase05]

We don’t, but you just need to look at other cities with smaller legacy airports near the city centre, and new geeenfield airports in the outskirts.

In most cases it’s the closer legacy airport that remains the more popular airport, and governments have only made a success of the new airports by regulation (eg max route distance like LGA), slot restrictions or increased fees. Not really a win for the passenger when the outcome is forced on them against their wishes.

But for all your accolades for the government, I agree with @SYD it was a massive fail not to include heavy rail at the airport with direct services to the CBD. That could singlehandedly be the death knell in any hopes of WSI being a replacement airport for SYD.

We shall see, but SYD is so well connected into the heavy rail system, it’s often faster than taxis in the inner suburbs, WSI is going to have to offer significant savings to compete like for like. That’s why I see WSI as a supplementary domestic airport for those living out that way, I really can’t see the premium international traffic going there (except maybe one or two curfew flights) unless the government forces it. Which again, is not a great thing for pax.

Absolutely the government got it wrong with rail but as others have mentioned it one day might get the required infrastructure. Being government owned and operated it’s in their interests to not let it become a white elephant.
The length of time is the key factor, it’s not going to suddenly overtake SYD and indeed will probably struggle for a while but in 30 or 40 years who knows. At the very least it should hopefully force SYD into some major works ( a bulldozer would be best)
It would be rather ironic though if the government paid airlines to take some services out there especially QR

 

[RooFlyer]

I do not think they should have been allowed to put the word Sydney in the name, as it's ridiculously misleading.

Well, its in western Sydney, which is a perfectly accurate geographic description. Like 'North Sydney' is that part of Sydney north of the city centre. Does that confuse people? Do tourists arrive and think 'Huh? I'm confused'? Should it be re-named? The South Sydney Rabbitohs may resist a name change.

The 'Sydney Olympics' and 'Sydney Olympic Park' were/is actually in the City of Parramatta. And Wiki, although not the be-all and end-all actually describes it as (my bold):

Sydney Olympic Park is a suburb of Greater Western Sydney, located 13 kilometres west of the Sydney central business district, in the local government area of the City of Parramatta Council. It is commonly known as Olympic Park but officially named Sydney Olympic Park.

Were all the athletes and tourists visiting in 2000 milling around the CBD looking for the 'Sydney Olympic Stadium'?

So you really don't need to be in the City of Sydney to be 'Sydney proper' do you?

 

[ausfox]

The demographic centre of Sydney is Rosehill, beside Parramatta.