WSI for Western Sydney Airport

[justinbrett]

Again forget passengers for a moment.

SYD, Mascot and Botany Bay is absolutely stuffed from a cargo and freight perspective. There is no possibility of expansion there physically is no room there anymore.

WSI is indeed the perfect location for that and it adds in a secondary passenger airport.

During peak periods (now to Christmas) our freight logistics gets absolutely slammed. And there is just no way to increase flight frequencies. You start watching 1-3 day EMS parcels take weeks to arrive.

I'm still not sure what the problem is.

Edit: the freight problems are just going to get worse with each year as more and more people use ecommerce and expect faster and faster turn around.

The trouble is most of the long haul pax flights will continue at SYD for most of our lifetimes, so other than dedicated freighters, most of the international freight will still be coming into SYD and then will have to be trucked out to WSI.

And at least for the next 20 years or so I’m certain the domestic network at SYD will be more extensive than WSI (eg I don’t see QantasLink operating from WSI) so I’d put money on SYD remaining a critical part of Australian freight infrastructure for the foreseeable future. With lots of trucks in the M5. Not ideal really.

 

[Lynda2475]

The metro is designed for short/quick journeys since there are hardly any seats. With travel times from WSI to city being over 90 mins even if there were a direct line that is a long time for most to be standing.

 

[RooFlyer]

They have not properly planned, more of Sydney population is significantly closer to SYD than WSI.

So, to close off this once and for all, where do YOU think a 'properly planned' airport should have been put? To allow growth of flights into Sydney for the next 30+ years? Please don't say 'drop the SYD curfew' or 'new runway into (or on) Botany Bay' - never going to happen, as we all know.

So where should it have been put?

The trouble is most of the long haul pax flights will continue at SYD for most of our lifetimes, so other than dedicated freighters, most of the international freight will still be coming into SYD and then will have to be trucked out to WSI.

Other than dedicated freighters ... but that's not a small proportion, is it (real question)? Is a % split between dedicated freighter tonnage or volume vs passenger planes freight available?

__________________

I found this interesting - 10 to 16 flights a day dedicated freight into SYD, mostly widebodies and many during 'peak times':

16Right - Cargo

16right.com

Imagine how taking most if not all these flights away from SYD will benefit passenger operations at SYD!

Also, isn't freight on passenger planes pretty lucrative? If so, I wonder if that might even tilt the balance of some passenger services towards WSI? Net return to the airline and all that, especially since the main logistic hub for Sydney is already in the west.

 

[justinbrett]

So, to close off this once and for all, where do YOU think a 'properly planned' airport should have been put? To allow growth of flights into Sydney for the next 30+ years? Please don't say 'drop the SYD curfew' or 'new runway into (or on) Botany Bay' - never going to happen, as we all know.

So where should it have been put?



Other than dedicated freighters ... but that's not a small proportion, is it (real question)? Is a % split between dedicated freighter tonnage or volume vs passenger planes freight available?

__________________

I found this interesting - 10 to 16 flights a day dedicated freight into SYD, mostly widebodies and many during 'peak times':

16Right - Cargo

16right.com

Imagine how taking most if not all these flights away from SYD will benefit passenger operations at SYD!

Also, isn't freight on passenger planes pretty lucrative? If so, I wonder if that might even tilt the balance of some passenger services towards WSI? Net return to the airline and all that, especially since the main logistic hub for Sydney is already in the west.

No, just expectation management that there will be freight at both airports and a huge increase of freight via trucks on the M5

Doubt a pax flight would change airports just due to belly freight. There will be trucks.

 

[Lynda2475]

So, to close off this once and for all, where do YOU think a 'properly planned' airport should have been put? To allow growth of flights into Sydney for the next 30+ years? Please don't say 'drop the SYD curfew' or 'new runway into (or on) Botany Bay' - never going to happen, as we all know.

Disagree both of these imo are entirely valid options. With planes being quieter than ever before curfew as are completely unnecessary, and SYD has been there longer than anyone alive so if you buy under flight path you've had more than a century to properly insulate/sound proof.

When certain conditions prevail I am under the flight path, it is a total non event. Much quieter than friends who live backing on to train lines.

So where should it have been put?

Have already answered this up thread.

But I'll add another, with forethought decades ago Olympic park would have worked perfectly. It was basically one giant toxic waste site better suited to industry than much the housing that sprung up there post olympics. It already has heavy rail and large bus network and metro is under construction. Halfway between Paramatta and City; too late now of course.

And if the decision for Badgery's creek was really made last century then 35 years ago there was also plenty of undeveloped (hobby farm) land in Liverpool itself (the South West edge of Greater Sydney); much closer to existing heavy rail (although express services would be needed to get people to useful areas).

Why dont you answer why you think it is acceptable to put it in the middle of nowhere with no direct PT to the city for which it is named? Do you really think 90+mins across multiple modes of PT is acceptable to get to Sydney (post code 2000) or the main airport SYD for connections?

Good planning would have ensure the second airport has fast PT connectivity to the city, main business centres and SYD.

You are known to whine about a 5 minute transfer form SYDd to SYDi; I cant wait to see the complaints if you have to transfer SYD to WSI or vice versa.

With no heavy rail nearby to WSI, moving the freight can only be done with trucks. The M4 and M5 are already over burdened with trucks, this will make it worse as most of those goods need to make it back east, north and south to where majority live. Its not like there are dedicated truck lanes, so this then impacts on people trying to get to and from work once they get into Sydney proper.

I found this interesting - 10 to 16 flights a day dedicated freight into SYD

Do you really think a mere 16 flights a day justifies the cost of WSi? Most freight comes in on passenger planes. For routes where an airline only had 1 flight a day they will stay at SYD as there will be more passenger demand from SYD.

Freight centres at SYD will need to remain operational to deal with all the freight on passenger planes.

 

[RooFlyer]

Why dont you answer why you think it is acceptable to put it in the middle of nowhere with no direct PT to the city for which it is named? Do you really think 90+mins across multiple modes of PT is acceptable to get to Sydney (post code 2000) or the main airport SYD for connections?

The airport isn't even open yet. I can't see a government spending billions more on a metro or a freeway upfront for what will be a small operation to start with, can you? The train line to SYD and a direct freeway connection to the CBD only occurred when the Olympics occurred, decades after SYD was operational!!

Moral: Its silly to expect 'though' transport solutions to occur for a small airport, initially. There are plans for the metro to reach there - this will happen, in time, just like the overall metro had happened and just as access to Kingsford Smith evolved as it grew.

Disagree both of these imo are entirely valid options. With planes being quieter than ever before curfew as are completely unnecessary, and SYD has been there longer than anyone alive so if you buy under flight path you've had more than a century to properly insulate/sound proof.

If you honestly think lifting of Sydney curfew and putting another runway in Botany Bay are 'valid options', let me introduce you to the environmental movement, and something like 30 inner city Federal+State election campaigns.

Find a party campaigning for 'more noise, pollution and traffic for inner Sydney' and how do you think they'll go? Honestly?

But I'll add another, with forethought decades ago Olympic park would have worked perfectly. It was basically one giant toxic waste site better suited to industry than much the housing that sprung up there post olympics. It already has heavy rail and large bus network and metro is under construction. Halfway between Paramatta and City; too late now of course.

Seriously? This is my estimation of flight paths/noise corridors. What's yours? How d'you reckon that would have gone down? No industrial area or Botany Bay to mitigate the nuisance.



BTW, your 'everyone under the flight paths knew they were there' thing goes out the window.

Why dont you answer why you think it is acceptable to put it in the middle of nowhere with no direct PT to the city for which it is named?

You've been so deaf to the many times this has been mentioned before, I know I'm wasting my typing, but for the sake of completeness:

* Western Sydney is not 'the middle of no-where'. One day, take a drive west of the A3 - you'll find a whole new world out there!!

* Not everyone who uses Kingsford Smith wants to travel to the city. In fact I'd say a minority, overall. Again, expand your horizons out of your neighbourhood and you'll discover the millions and millions of souls who happily reside beyond 10km of the Pacific coast. From Kingsford Smith, they go west, south and north over the bridge. You'll be amazed!

* Its named 'Western Sydney International' That may give you a hint of the area its mainly concerned with, and where the initial PT and roadways service.

Do you really think a mere 16 flights a day justifies the cost of WSi?

Um, no, .