Sydney Airport storm chaos

[bambbbam2]

From
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24656411-5006784,00.html

I managed to avoid this just.. the PER flight was too close to divert I think..

"AT least 2000 frustrated airline passengers were sent to hotels or forced to sleep in terminals after Sydney Airport was thrown into chaos on Friday night.

Scores of flights were cancelled, delayed and diverted because of the effects of a severe electrical storm in Sydney and a critical shortage of air traffic controllers.

Witnesses described scenes of "chaos", with backlogs of waiting passengers growing until the airport's 11pm (AEDT) curfew.
Airlines quickly booked out hotels. Yesterday, passengers were scrambled onto extra morning flights to clear wait lists.

Domestic flights were worst affected. A retail worker at the airport described Friday night as "general chaos", while a hotel manager said it was "crazy" and there were no taxis.

Qantas confirmed it put 1200 Sydney passengers into hotels near the airport and CBD, while another 250 to 300 were accommodated at the airport.

"We gave them pillows and blankets," a spokeswoman said.

Passengers are not normally permitted to sleep overnight in terminals but a Sydney Airport spokesman said an exception was made because of special circumstances.

Mercure Hotel Sydney Airport duty manager Jackie McGrath said the hotel had provided Rex and Qantas airlines with over 70 rooms to sleep about 100 passengers."

And from
http://www.smh.com.au/news/news/loo...-of-a-diversion/2008/11/15/1226319003374.html

QANTAS was forced to ration water, biscuits, nappies and toilet paper - four sheets a person - to passengers who spent more than 24 hours on a flight diverted from Sydney because of a storm.

QF32 left Singapore at noon Sydney time on Friday and was due to arrive in Sydney about 8pm.

But the Boeing 747 was forced to circle the airport for more than an hour and then spend more than eight hours at Canberra airport after failing to land because of the storm.

The unplanned stop at Canberra to refuel turned into a four-hour wait for the fuel truck to arrive. By the time the plane was ready to take off again Sydney airport's 11pm curfew was in force, prompting Qantas to apply to the Department of Transport for special dispensation to land. It was refused.

The airline kept passengers on board until 5.30am yesterday, in anticipation of the airport's curfew ending at 6am. By that time the cabin crew had already exceeded their maximum shift time and a new crew was called in.

Shortly before 6am the airline made a decision to book hotel rooms for passengers for the four hours before the plane could take off. They were processed by a single Customs officer in Canberra.

"It was a nightmare," said Francis Chippeck, who travelled with her daughter, Ava, 2, from Singapore. "The plane was hot and sticky and I ran out of nappies at about 1am.

"They gave me two extras but by yesterday morning I was down to the last one and I had to say to her, 'You better not poo."'

Ronald Ross and his four children, aged 4 to 15, joined the Qantas flight on Friday morning after travelling from London the day before. By the time they arrived in Sydney the family had spent 72 hours on planes and waiting at airports.

"The whole time we were on there they only gave us two biscuits and a bottle of water," he said.

"The crew were great but the only thing that annoyed me was that I had four children and I asked them if we could get them off the plane first and in the end we were the last to get off."

Other passengers commended the Qantas cabin crew, saying some of the stewards offered their own mobile phones for people to call their families to tell them of their delays.

But one passenger, who asked only to be identified as Martin, said the crew were forced to ration everything on board throughout the night. "I had to ask for toilet paper," he said. "They only gave me four sheets."

A Qantas spokeswoman said: "The aircraft stopped at Singapore from Europe so there wouldn't have been [resources] left on board, anyway."

She said it was not possible to get extra supplies on board at Canberra.

"Canberra's not set up to service a 747 - they don't normally land there; it's not an international airport."

A Department of Transport spokesman did not respond to questions about why it denied Qantas dispensation to break the curfew."

 

[wallacej]

Why woud a divert to MEL not be an option here???? Cheaper to keep all on the plane???? You would think some pax would have been ging to MEL anyway?

 

[NM]

Why woud a divert to MEL not be an option here???? Cheaper to keep all on the plane???? You would think some pax would have been ging to MEL anyway?

I read somewhere (another forum perhaps??) that MEL could not accept them. Not sure of the details, but perhaps all their suitable bays and other resources were already stretched.

And there were some pretty decent storms around BNE this afternoon - not sure what effects these had.

 

[Danger]

I was on QF583 from Sydney to Perth on Friday night. Much to my surprise we actually boarded and pushed back on time (unusual, in my experience, for this flight). We taxied and then came to a stop. The captain came on the PA advising we were third or fourth in line to take off, after the storms cleared. About 15 minutes later he came back on and said there had been a dramatic shift in winds and we now had to turn around and taxi to the other end of the runway (or another runway, I'm not sure) and that he didn't expect us to take off for about 40 minutes. We ended up being about 65 minutes late leaving.

 

[Skyring]

QF32 left Singapore at noon Sydney time on Friday and was due to arrive in Sydney about 8pm.

But the Boeing 747 was forced to circle the airport for more than an hour and then spend more than eight hours at Canberra airport after failing to land because of the storm.

The unplanned stop at Canberra to refuel turned into a four-hour wait for the fuel truck to arrive. By the time the plane was ready to take off again Sydney airport's 11pm curfew was in force, prompting Qantas to apply to the Department of Transport for special dispensation to land. It was refused.

The airline kept passengers on board until 5.30am yesterday, in anticipation of the airport's curfew ending at 6am. By that time the cabin crew had already exceeded their maximum shift time and a new crew was called in.

Shortly before 6am the airline made a decision to book hotel rooms for passengers for the four hours before the plane could take off. They were processed by a single Customs officer in Canberra.

A Qantas spokeswoman said: "The aircraft stopped at Singapore from Europe so there wouldn't have been [resources] left on board, anyway."

She said it was not possible to get extra supplies on board at Canberra.

"Canberra's not set up to service a 747 - they don't normally land there; it's not an international airport."

A Department of Transport spokesman did not respond to questions about why it denied Qantas dispensation to break the curfew."

Some untruths in that report. I was waiting in the cabyard when I heard a plane come in that was clearly heavier than the normal 737s and Embraers. I tried to spot it through the security fence, but it was too far away and too dark for me to identify it. Probably a 767.

There were at least three flights diverted to Canberra that night, beginning about 2100. QF766 from Adelaide, QF458 from Melbourne, QF32 from Heathrow.

This was in addition to our regular arrivals, plus it was a busy night in Civic, and we had a storm grumbling around which finally broke around 0230. So the taxi fleet in Canberra was extremely busy.

I picked up a passenger from Adelaide. She'd been booked by Qantas into a Civic hotel and given two taxi vouchers, one for the trip in, another for the return to the airport in the morning. I returned to the airport to collect another passenger, this one from Melbourne.

By this stage, we were well aware of the 300 passengers in a 747. Well after midnight and we cabbies waited. Various explanations for the delay - immigration officials bussed in from Sydney, a refuelling truck required.

The call came about 0230, and the passengers began dribbling out from the VIP terminal at RAAF Fairbairn. I followed the taxi stream in, collecting four passengers, each clutching a pair of vouchers.

By now it was raining, and we drove into Canberra along the roadworks that mark the expansion of the road from two lanes to four. It must have appeared desolate indeed to my exhausted passengers, for they were utterly silent for the drive into the first stop at Hotel Realm. A new and very good hotel, this passenger had scored well, though how much he'd enjoy the room at three in the morning was debatable. I collected his signed voucher and looked into the back seat where three men sat crowded together, clutching their carryon bags.

"There's room for one in the front," I offered.

"Oh, we're used to it by now," one replied, and I dare say that they were after more than a day wedged into economy. I even had a current Qantas magazine in the seat pocket, along with an American Airlines magazine from last month.

I dropped one off at the Novotel, and the other two at the Pavillion a little further along Northbourne Avenue.

I guess I wasn't thinking straight, because I had them on the multiple hire rate, which is a significant discount on the full weekend rate. Qantas wasn't keeping track of which passengers went in which taxi, and so long as the amount on the voucher wasn't much more than the regular fare, there'd be no complaints. I could have squeezed another thirty dollars out of Qantas, easy.

But I did the right thing.

I contemplated returning to Fairbairn, but 300 passengers would be shifted by a hundred and fifty taxi trips, easy, and I didn't want to risk going all the way out to Fairbairn and being left without a fare.

Besides, I'd made a bundle, tired passengers were a lot easier to cart around than rowdy drunks, and it was well past shift changeover and my weekend driver was waiting.

All of the passengers would have been clear of Fairbairn by four in the morning and in their hotels by four thirty. Just carryon bags, because their checked luggage remained in the hold.

They had to be back by 1030, and maybe later, because the 747 was still waiting at Fairbairn at 1130 next morning.

 

[moa999]

Think someone in DoT has a lot of explaining to do.
I would have thought this is one of those situations where breaking curfew is absolutely fair enough

 

[Evan]

Think someone in DoT has a lot of explaining to do.
I would have thought this is one of those situations where breaking curfew is absolutely fair enough

There was another incident not too different from this earlier in the year where a curfew break would also make sense, i think its really cruel to passangers and to be honest the domestic flights fair enough maybe reject but these poor people came from LHR and SIN. Yes i feel for the people who live around the airport but a single 747 20 minutes after curfew for such a reason i think would be justified.

Problem is QF yet complained about yet there is nothing they can do, i wait for the day when its SQ flight (hopefully not mine !)

E

 

[drron]

And a great first impression for any international tourists on board.How many millions in Federal govt advertising will it take to counter the negative word of mouth bashing this incident will cause?

 

[markis10]

Think someone in DoT has a lot of explaining to do.
I would have thought this is one of those situations where breaking curfew is absolutely fair enough

DoT was disbanded in the 1990's (sorry - I am being picky), and it you read the rules the curfew dispensation was not permitted by law, as the weather was expected and forecast, also the prevailing approach would have been from the North which is not permitted.

QF32 should have diverted to Melbourne or Brisbane where better facilities are in place but obviously could not owing to fuel, I owuld suggest in this case the issue lies with QF OPs decision making and circumstance.

 

[NM]

Think someone in DoT has a lot of explaining to do.
I would have thought this is one of those situations where breaking curfew is absolutely fair enough

But this was not a curfew incident. QF32 was due to arrive into SYD around 8pm but was unable to land there due to storms. Curfew begins at 11pm, so to "break" curfew, it would have needed to have circled for over 2 hours. However, as all commercial aircraft do need to land at some point in time (no air-to-air refuelling for QF 747s), if it could not land at SYD due to weather, it had to land somewhere else.

I also don't see how DOT is to blame. If SYD is unavailable due to weather, then the captain makes a decision in consultation with ATC and the airline company. In QF32's case it seems the initial decision was to hold outside SYD hoping for the weather to clear. At all times there will have been a defined alternate in case SYD did not become available in the required timeframe. The choice of CBR as the alternate will have ultimately been the captain's, based on information from ATC and Qantas flight operations. And of course the captain will not have known that the tug was going to break down and there was going to be a problem that would delay refuelling. He probably expected, based on the weather information available at the time, that they would land at CBR, refuel and pop back to SYD before curfew after the weather cleared.

Sounds to me like logical decisions that come unstuck due to a tug breakdown and unexpected refuelling delays at CBR which then brought about the need to disembark the passengers and process them at an under-staffed immigration locations.

 

[moa999]

The unplanned stop at Canberra to refuel turned into a four-hour wait for the fuel truck to arrive. By the time the plane was ready to take off again Sydney airport's 11pm curfew was in force, prompting Qantas to apply to the Department of Transport for special dispensation to land. It was refused.

This was the part where I think curfew should have been allowed to be broken. After refuelling in Canberra, back to Sydney for say a midnight landing.

 

[Skyring]

This was the part where I think curfew should have been allowed to be broken. After refuelling in Canberra, back to Sydney for say a midnight landing.

That would certainly have been convenient for Qantas and the passengers. Perhaps the curfew should be abolished entirely, as a matter of convenience.

 

[markis10]

This was the part where I think curfew should have been allowed to be broken. After refuelling in Canberra, back to Sydney for say a midnight landing.

A request would not have got past the first step, it was not exceptional circumstances:

To be considered exceptional the circumstances must generally be:

• of immediate origin;
• of such a character that they could not reasonably have been foreseen;
  and
• not reasonably able to be met by alternative arrangements

It was not immediate - the plane was on the gorund, the diversion need was forseen by the existance of an alternate nominated in the flight plan and there were rooms available for accomodation which is a consideration under the "alternate arrangements"!


I am sure in this case the Canberra taxis and hotels would agree with the right for the hundreds of thousands of Sydneysiders to have an uninterupted sleep at the expense of the 300 odd pax, commercial benefits aside

By comparison there are occasions where approval is given as is the case on 15th October where VXP was diverted back to Sydney after storms at Brisbane resulting in an arroval after 11PM:

"The delegate was satisfied that the circumstances met the three mandatory criteria required for issue of a curfew dispensation. The evacuation of the tarmac by personnel was of immediate origin and could not have been reasonably foreseen. Qantas was unable to make alternative arrangements. The aircraft arrived in Sydney on runway 34L at 11:06pm."

There was a similar example in August:
​

Qantas flight QF128 (Hong Kong to Sydney) was originally diverted to Manila due to a predicted typhoon in Hong Kong. The flight resumed its schedule to Hong Kong once the typhoon had passed. Qantas was delayed departing Hong Kong at 12:50pm due to traffic congestion as a result of the typhoon. Qantas applied for a dispensation to land no later than 11:10pm at Sydney Airport. There were 253 passengers and 18 crew members on board.​

Approved: No
​

​

The application did not meet the three mandatory criteria required for issue of a curfew dispensation as Qantas had sufficient time to make alternative arrangements.​

 

[Skyring]

I am sure in this case the Canberra taxis and hotels would agree with the right for the hundreds of thousands of Sydneysiders to have an uninterupted sleep at the expense of the 300 odd pax, commercial benefits aside

While I personally had a better Friday night shift than I would otherwise have had, I'm firmly on the side of operational efficiency here. Getting those hundreds of passengers - and crew - into Sydney would have been preferable to having them in Canberra for the night and morning.

The cost of transport and accommodation, plus the disruption to the plans of the passengers and crew, and Qantas itself, down one jumbo, not to mention the family and friends waiting for the arrival of QF32 - it would be a huge amount.

I'm also thinking of the Sydney taxi and limousine drivers waiting for passengers. It would have been a disaster, as they would be waiting for the scheduled arrival, and then waiting hours more. They couldn't claim waiting and transport costs for a service not delivered, nor could they earn anything else whilst standing around with name boards in the arrivals hall.

And then there's the cost to passengers of hotel rooms booked but not slept in, and possibly onward connections missed.

Putting myself in the position of a passenger on the delayed plane, I'd be livid. And exhausted.

 

[simongr]

I am sure in this case the Canberra taxis and hotels would agree with the right for the hundreds of thousands of Sydneysiders to have an uninterupted sleep at the expense of the 300 odd pax, commercial benefits aside

Hundreds of thousands of Sydneysiders impacted? Surely you jest. How many people live on the flightpath where noise levels would be of a sufficient level to disturb sleep?

Although in the past I have argued against the curfew, having had a flight scheduled to leave at 2:30AM from Bangalore, I am reconsidering it's benefits

 

[moa999]

A request would not have got past the first step, it was not exceptional circumstances:



To be considered exceptional the circumstances must generally be:

• of immediate origin;
• of such a character that they could not reasonably have been foreseen;
  and
• not reasonably able to be met by alternative arrangements

- It would have been immediate, but for Qantas choosing not to takeoff from Canberra unless they received approval
- Not forseen - orginal storm - maybe forseeable, issues at Canberra with fuel and tow - probably not forseeable
- I am sure that most passengers aboard would think that being stuck on a plane at Canberra aiport for [six hours], deplaning in the pouring rain, and then only having a single immigration officer to process is hardly "reasonable"

I understand the curfew is there for a reason and the authorities are not keen to break the dam but I think some common sense is needed, particularly for passengers who may have already been in the air for 24h

 

[markis10]

Hundreds of thousands of Sydneysiders impacted? Surely you jest. How many people live on the flightpath where noise levels would be of a sufficient level to disturb sleep?

Sydney airport wrote to 105000 homes that were assessed to have been possibly affected by aircraft noise following runway works on RWY 07/25, assuming we have an average of two residents per house thats hundreds of thousands just from an approach to RWY 16 , having lived at Earlwood in the past I know what noise can be expected, even from a landing on 16 !

 

[NM]

I understand the curfew is there for a reason and the authorities are not keen to break the dam but I think some common sense is needed, particularly for passengers who may have already been in the air for 24h

The application of common sense and government policy are mutually exclusive

 

[markis10]

- It would have been immediate, but for Qantas choosing not to takeoff from Canberra unless they received approval
- Not forseen

You cannot takeoff from Canberra without having a slot to land at Sydney in place, which would not have been issued with a curfew in place, so it was by no means immediate!

I would suggest the following also played a large part in the result:

1.QF OPs took a gamble with running on bare holding reserve minima with Canberra as an alternate despite storms being on the forcast from the 0000z TAF, this being safe and commercially attractive compared to the additional 26+ tonnes of fuel required for the alternate divert to BNE or MEL.

2. The captain could have requested more fuel to provide for longer holding than that required, but would have had difficulty justifying the commercial impact of his decision.

While I do agree the passengers were hard done by, I believe the decisions of QF and bad luck should take the blame here, not a rule that has been in place for a long time that gets broken when it needs to!

To give you an idea of the timeline by which decisions where made, Thunderstorm warnings were on the 6PM obs indicating an 8PM arrival:

METAR YSSY 140700Z 04020KT 9999 FEW010 SCT170 BKN260 25/18 Q1008 TEMPO 0900/1000 3000 TSRA SCT015 SCT060CB FM0700 MOD TURB BLW 5000FT

The storms were first observed at 6.59 in a SPECI (Special report)
SPECI YSSY 140759Z 03024G34KT 9999 VCSH FEW010 SCT110 BKN170 25/18 Q1008 RMK TS 30NM SW MOVING ENE 25 KNOTS TEMPO 0900/1059 3000 TSRA SCT015 SCT060CB FM0759 MOD TURB BLW 5000FT

And they cleared by 804PM
SPECI YSSY 140904Z 22015KT 7000 -TSRA FEW010 BKN100 FEW090CB 24/18 Q1012 FM0904 22015G25KT 9999 -SHRA FEW010 SCT050 BKN100 FM0930 27015G25KT 9999 -SHRA FEW010 SCT050 BKN110 FM1100 36015KT 9999 -SHRA FEW025 SCT080 TEMPO 0904/1200 3000 TSRA SCT015 SCT060CB FM0904 MOD TURB BLW 5000FT

Have a look here for a nice snapshot of conditions for the day at Sydney:

http://www.wunderground.com/history...tename=NA&theprefset=SHOWMETAR&theprefvalue=1

 

[IMOA]

I was on 556 to BNE which was delayed, delayed, delayed, boarded in a mad rush at 10:40 and then after the door closed we were kicked out due to curfew restrictions. While I do have my complaints about how qantas managed things on the night I have a very hard time seeing how taking off 5 minutes after curfew would have so badly invonvinienced these "hundreds of thousands" who bought a house next to the airport and had the government soundproof/double glaze it.

Most annoying was I had 23k on 556 and ended up on a packed to the gills 734 to get back to BNE the next day!

skyring - I wouldn't feel too bad about the sydney taxi drivers. Because of the shortage and qantas picking up the bill they did very nicely. The taxi I made it into was dropping off at north ryde, wahroonga, castle hill and kellyville. The total fare would have been north of $500