Qantas' Idiotic Award Booking Engine (Or How to Book Classic Awards Whenever, Wherever)

[kangarooflyer88]

Apologies in advance for the rant, but thought I'd post this both to do a bit of venting, but most importantly to make AFF members aware of a crucial shortcoming of the Qantas award booking engine. Put simply, Qantas does not list all available award routings to QFF members. Consequently, when we search for those coveted business classic awards to major destinations like Europe and occasionally North America, we are often left disappointed (see the numerous threads on AFF discussing this).

I don't know how Qantas' award booking engine works, but will speculate that they likely look for Qantas, Emirates and OneWorld partners when booking flights which necessitate a connection (i.e. SYD to FRA). However, for flights where nonstops are possible (i.e. SYD to TPE) they will also search for other partners they have a stitch up with (i.e. China Airlines). In addition, I think that Qantas considers the mileage each routing takes and purposely excludes routings that are a certain percentage over the hypothetical non-stop routing from point A to point B (called maximum permitted mileage in Aeroplan terms). Hence, in some instances it might be possible to "stitch" together a classic award itinerary that involves a combination of Qantas' core partners like JL and other award partners like China Airlines. Or alternatively, take a routing that goes in the opposite direction of where you are intending to go.

To provide a concrete example, for you, the reader, let's consider a popular destination people on here love to go to: London. In particular, consider someone travelling from London back to Sydney as far in advance as possible (i.e. November 2023). Well if I check the award calendar feature on QFF I see all we've got are economic classic awards despite me being a Gold (and having access to advance QF inventory) and booking many months in advance:


Now let's consider some routings using the multi-city tool of Qantas, this time going segment by segment. Out of London there are really two ways we can reach Sydney, out East across Europe and Asia or out West to the US and across the Pacific.

Let's consider the first option for a moment, travelling across Europe. Well there are a number of potential hubs that come to mind: Dubai (for Emirates), Amsterdam and Paris (for KLM/Air France), Columbo (for Sri Lankan), Tokyo (for JAL), Kuala Lumpur (for Malaysia), Singapore (for BA/QF), Taipei (for China Airlines), Hong Kong (for Cathay), Doha (for Qatar), Amman (for Royal Jordanian), Madrid (for Iberia), Helsinki (for FinnAir). Checking around, I notice a couple of interesting routings. In particular, China Airlines has a ton of available business classic awards between Taipei and Sydney for 75,000 points + $159 AUD in taxes & fees. At the same time I notice there's an EK flight that will bring me into TPE a couple hours earlier:




So there's one way to get from London Heathrow to Sydney via Europe. How about via North America? In this case we've got a couple of obvious options for hubs: LAX, DFW and SFO are the main hubs for QF and AA. In addition, we also need to add JFK to our list now that QF has introduced their JFK to SYD direct service. Taking a look at the most obvious option, LHR to LAX we see BA has a ton of business classic availability to get us there. And now checking the award calendar we see it's possible to fly Fiji from LAX to SYD (via Nadi) again as a business classic award, yielding this itinerary:




So there's a way back to Sydney via North America. Now granted, both of these itineraries are off the beaten path of something obvious like LHR to SYD via SIN. Nevertheless, they are valid routing options which in my mind should be shown to QF travellers interested in a routing to get them home, even if it is circuitous and may use slightly more points to get the job done. By contrast, I should point out that Air Canada's Aeroplan does a better job of showing all options, even if those options are circuitous. Using Sydney to Toronto as an example for November the 2nd, we get the following:



I suppose my rant is Qantas that if Qantas wants to provide real value to their frequent flyers, they need to show these circuitous routings to their members. They are available to members anyways, and it would enable Qantas to provide more options to travellers at virtually no cost of their own. No need to announce points planes or anything else. Simply make your booking engine more clever to highlight these routings.

I would be curious what the community thinks about the Qantas award booking engine and if there are other tips n' tricks to force classic award availability to appear, particularly on long haul routes like these.

-RooFlyer88

 

[exceladdict]

I suppose my rant is Qantas that if Qantas wants to provide real value to their frequent flyers, they need to show these circuitous routings to their members. They are available to members anyways, and it would enable Qantas to provide more options to travellers at virtually no cost of their own. No need to announce points planes or anything else. Simply make your booking engine more clever to highlight these routings.

And therein lies the problem. Making partner rewards easier to book means sending revenue elsewhere. QF-operated Y awards, as the original chart may have directed you to, on the other hand...

I would be curious what the community thinks about the Qantas award booking engine and if there are other tips n' tricks to force classic award availability to appear, particularly on long haul routes like these.

Back in the day I would use AA and BA engines to search, and the QF calendar view (when it worked). These days though, the different inventory controls make it much more difficult.

 

[Ade]

Apologies in advance for the rant, but thought I'd post this both to do a bit of venting, but most importantly to make AFF members aware of a crucial shortcoming of the Qantas award booking engine. Put simply, Qantas does not list all available award routings to QFF members. Consequently, when we search for those coveted business classic awards to major destinations like Europe and occasionally North America, we are often left disappointed (see the numerous threads on AFF discussing this).

I don't know how Qantas' award booking engine works, but will speculate that they likely look for Qantas, Emirates and OneWorld partners when booking flights which necessitate a connection (i.e. SYD to FRA). However, for flights where nonstops are possible (i.e. SYD to TPE) they will also search for other partners they have a stitch up with (i.e. China Airlines). In addition, I think that Qantas considers the mileage each routing takes and purposely excludes routings that are a certain percentage over the hypothetical non-stop routing from point A to point B (called maximum permitted mileage in Aeroplan terms). Hence, in some instances it might be possible to "stitch" together a classic award itinerary that involves a combination of Qantas' core partners like JL and other award partners like China Airlines. Or alternatively, take a routing that goes in the opposite direction of where you are intending to go.

To provide a concrete example, for you, the reader, let's consider a popular destination people on here love to go to: London. In particular, consider someone travelling from London back to Sydney as far in advance as possible (i.e. November 2023). Well if I check the award calendar feature on QFF I see all we've got are economic classic awards despite me being a Gold (and having access to advance QF inventory) and booking many months in advance:
View attachment 310998

Now let's consider some routings using the multi-city tool of Qantas, this time going segment by segment. Out of London there are really two ways we can reach Sydney, out East across Europe and Asia or out West to the US and across the Pacific.

Let's consider the first option for a moment, travelling across Europe. Well there are a number of potential hubs that come to mind: Dubai (for Emirates), Amsterdam and Paris (for KLM/Air France), Columbo (for Sri Lankan), Tokyo (for JAL), Kuala Lumpur (for Malaysia), Singapore (for BA/QF), Taipei (for China Airlines), Hong Kong (for Cathay), Doha (for Qatar), Amman (for Royal Jordanian), Madrid (for Iberia), Helsinki (for FinnAir). Checking around, I notice a couple of interesting routings. In particular, China Airlines has a ton of available business classic awards between Taipei and Sydney for 75,000 points + $159 AUD in taxes & fees. At the same time I notice there's an EK flight that will bring me into TPE a couple hours earlier:
View attachment 311004
View attachment 311005


So there's one way to get from London Heathrow to Sydney via Europe. How about via North America? In this case we've got a couple of obvious options for hubs: LAX, DFW and SFO are the main hubs for QF and AA. In addition, we also need to add JFK to our list now that QF has introduced their JFK to SYD direct service. Taking a look at the most obvious option, LHR to LAX we see BA has a ton of business classic availability to get us there. And now checking the award calendar we see it's possible to fly Fiji from LAX to SYD (via Nadi) again as a business classic award, yielding this itinerary:

View attachment 311013
View attachment 311014

So there's a way back to Sydney via North America. Now granted, both of these itineraries are off the beaten path of something obvious like LHR to SYD via SIN. Nevertheless, they are valid routing options which in my mind should be shown to QF travellers interested in a routing to get them home, even if it is circuitous and may use slightly more points to get the job done. By contrast, I should point out that Air Canada's Aeroplan does a better job of showing all options, even if those options are circuitous. Using Sydney to Toronto as an example for November the 2nd, we get the following:

View attachment 311023

I suppose my rant is Qantas that if Qantas wants to provide real value to their frequent flyers, they need to show these circuitous routings to their members. They are available to members anyways, and it would enable Qantas to provide more options to travellers at virtually no cost of their own. No need to announce points planes or anything else. Simply make your booking engine more clever to highlight these routings.

I would be curious what the community thinks about the Qantas award booking engine and if there are other tips n' tricks to force classic award availability to appear, particularly on long haul routes like these.

-RooFlyer88

I'm just curious as to how got the QF calander view to work?!? Can't figure this out, although, I have used it in the past ... I get your point though @kangarooflyer88 QF search engine ain't the friendliest out there and certainly not the beneficial for pax either.

 

[mrsterryn]

That is how I look for our rewards nowadays.
I use the various hubs that are used for layover stopovers
Eg Syd to LHR
Sydney to HND
HND to LHR

I have followed many varied advices for how to do that via that method from AFF

 

[kangarooflyer88]

One of the challenges with QF is they have a lot of mistresses (i.e. partners that don't fall under the usual OneWorld alliance) like KLM/Air France or China Airlines that are hidden for most folks. Is there a comprehensive list anywhere that shows all of these mistresses so one could piece together an itinerary that works? In the interim, here's a list of Qantas' mistresses that I'm aware of:

Mistress	Hub
Air France	Paris (CDG)
KLM	Amsterdam (AMS)
China Airlines	Taipei (TPE)
WestJet	Vancouver (YVR), Calgary (YYC), Toronto (YYZ)
LATAM	Santiago (SCL)
EL Al	Tel Aviv (TLV)
Asiana	Seoul (ICN)
China Eastern	Shanghai (PVG), Beijing (PEK)
China Southern	Guangzhou (CAN), Shanghai (PVG), Beijing (PEK)
Indigo	Delhi (DEL), Bombay (BOM), Bangalore (BLR)
Solomon Airlines	Honiara (HIR)
Bangkok Airlines	Bangkok (BKK)
Air Vanuatu	Port Vila (VLI)

 

[encryptededdy]

One of the challenges with QF is they have a lot of mistresses (i.e. partners that don't fall under the usual OneWorld alliance) like KLM/Air France or China Airlines that are hidden for most folks. Is there a comprehensive list anywhere that shows all of these mistresses so one could piece together an itinerary that works? In the interim, here's a list of Qantas' mistresses that I'm aware of:

Also worth noting that these partnerships don't usually provide access to the full network. For instance, you can only redeem QFF for flights between Australia and Taiwan on China Airlines, not anywhere else on their network.

 

[kangarooflyer88]

Also worth noting that these partnerships don't usually provide access to the full network. For instance, you can only redeem QFF for flights between Australia and Taiwan on China Airlines, not anywhere else on their network.

Perhaps, but what is stopping someone from booking it out as a multi-city award booking?

 

[encryptededdy]

Perhaps, but what is stopping someone from booking it out as a multi-city award booking?

Nothing, just worth noting that you will have to use a different carrier to access their hub on the "other side".

 

[kangarooflyer88]

I'm just curious as to how got the QF calander view to work?!? Can't figure this out, although, I have used it in the past ... I get your point though @kangarooflyer88 QF search engine ain't the friendliest out there and certainly not the beneficial for pax either.

You use the multi-city search tool and you just specify one flight as part of multi-city search.

 

[RooFlyer]

I suppose my rant is Qantas that if Qantas wants to provide real value to their frequent flyers, they need to show these circuitous routings to their members.

Qantas has no incentive to provide ‘real value’ to their frequent flyers. They have received the $$$ from selling points to merchants so then what the QFFs do with their points is as far as the airline is concerned.

If people think I’m being too cynical, then lets hear a reason why Qantas should provide ‘real value’.

I would be curious what the community thinks about the Qantas award booking engine

Attempting long haul premium cabin redemptions using Qantas points using its booking engine is frankly a fool’s errand. A mugs game.

Even looking at for economy seats, it’s known thing that fees, taxes, and carrier charges for Qantas economy redemptions go close to what you can get from sale fares for cash. Again, it’s a fools errand.

If I must use my Qantas record flyer points, I would use an Award Flight Assist. Spend a few bucks, but save lots of valuable time and get a decent result.

 

[encryptededdy]

From a purely selfish perspective, it's good if they don't fix this since it means more award seats available for those who are both "in the know" and are able to put in the time to try these alternate routings

 

[kangarooflyer88]

Qantas has no incentive to provide ‘real value’ to their frequent flyers. They have received the $$$ from selling points to merchants so then what the QFFs do with their points is as far as the airline is concerned.

Respectfully disagree. They need those points to have perceived value to travellers to satisfy their main customers: banks, supermarkets and other frequent shopping programs that buy Qantas Points as a way to reward customers. If people think all they can get are simple flights between Melbourne and Sydney, then quite frankly the aspirational value of the points are gone. People accrue those hundreds of thousands of points in the hope that someday they can redeem it on a J flight to London with their spouse and themselves.

Attempting long haul premium cabin redemptions using Qantas points using its booking engine is frankly a fool’s errand. A mugs game.

Even with Aeroplan, which allows these circuitous routings, it can also be a mugs game for the simple fact that there may not be J availability all the way to your final destination. Hence, when I saw that there wasn't SYD to YYZ in J when I wanted to fly in April, I decided to make it a flight with a stopover in ZRH which also enabled me to hit another bird with one stone.

Even looking at for economy seats, it’s known thing that fees, taxes, and carrier charges for Qantas economy redemptions go close to what you can get from sale fares for cash. Again, it’s a fools errand.

It really depends on the routing. Certainly SYD to LDH booked as an economy classic is hardly a fool's errand. In addition, those points can be quite useful for domestic upgrades which confirm instantly. That way you spend fewer points to fly J, earn status credits and end up paying only a bit more in cash than had you booked the economy award (i.e. paying for the base fare which for things like SYD > MEL is very minimal).

If I must use my Qantas record flyer points, I would use an Award Flight Assist. Spend a few bucks, but save lots of valuable time and get a decent result.

To each their own. There's certainly a number of programs out there that offer guidance for booking award travel including Points.me, ExpertFlyer and the aforementioned AwardAssist. For me, though, I sort of enjoy the challenge of twisting myself into a pretzel to find those sweet spots!

-RooFlyer88

 

[RooFlyer]

For me, though, I sort of enjoy the challenge of twisting myself into a pretzel to find those sweet spots!

Evidently!

 

[p--and--t]

Please please spread the word that it is all too hard.

More seats for me for my next trip. Unfortunately currently run out of points (except for Y, which is not my preference) after 3 trips around the world in J using QFF points.

 

[dajop]

then quite frankly the aspirational value of the points are gone.

If you watch what is happening in the hotel space and to a certain extent with US based carriers, it seems loyalty programs are moving away from aspirational awards and becoming more and more like currencies. That’s fine if they do that I say they can take their loyalty programs and shove it and I’ll just use consider them as convoluted rebate schemes and make decisions appropriately.

 

[Pushka]

One of the challenges with QF is they have a lot of mistresses (i.e. partners that don't fall under the usual OneWorld alliance) like KLM/Air France or China Airlines that are hidden for most folks. Is there a comprehensive list anywhere that shows all of these mistresses so one could piece together an itinerary that works? In the interim, here's a list of Qantas' mistresses that I'm aware of:

Mistress	Hub
Air France	Paris (CDG)
KLM	Amsterdam (AMS)
China Airlines	Taipei (TPE)
WestJet	Vancouver (YVR), Calgary (YYC), Toronto (YYZ)
LATAM	Santiago (SCL)
EL Al	Tel Aviv (TLV)
Asiana	Seoul (ICN)
China Eastern	Shanghai (PVG), Beijing (PEK)
China Southern	Guangzhou (CAN), Shanghai (PVG), Beijing (PEK)
Indigo	Delhi (DEL), Bombay (BOM), Bangalore (BLR)
Solomon Airlines	Honiara (HIR)
Bangkok Airlines	Bangkok (BKK)
Air Vanuatu	Port Vila (VLI)

Add MH. I've had great success using KL as a hub out of Adelaide. MH also meshes well with KLM.

 

[kangarooflyer88]

Add MH. I've had great success using KL as a hub out of Adelaide. MH also meshes well with KLM.

I believe MH (Malaysian) is a member of OneWorld? Hence it's not a mistress when it comes to award bookings. That being said your point of MH meshing with KL is a key data point since others have mentioned that mistresses don't always mesh with QF's monogamous partners.

-RooFlyer88

 

[exceladdict]

They need those points to have perceived value to travellers to satisfy their main customers: banks, supermarkets and other frequent shopping programs that buy Qantas Points as a way to reward customers. If people think all they can get are simple flights between Melbourne and Sydney, then quite frankly the aspirational value of the points are gone. People accrue those hundreds of thousands of points in the hope that someday they can redeem it on a J flight to London with their spouse and themselves.

I know of someone who spent 600k (of someone else's, I should add) points on a JQ PER-MEL return flight and thought they had a good deal by saving a few hundred dollars vs a cash ticket. Similarly, when arguing the value of comparative redemptions, many others have told me they "would never fly business class".

I've also found arguing til one is blue in the face won't change someone's mind on this - and perhaps, a (very) poor value Y redemption is enough aspiration to encourage them to keep shopping at woolies and paying the annual fee on a big four credit card they've had open for years.

If there was no aspirational value still ascribed to Qantas points, it would be very difficult for QF to sell them. I don't feel that's the case right now. That said, I've noticed referral offers on the QFU card trending down - so perhaps things are changing (or as others have said, the finance sector doesn't need to offer as many carrots right now?)

 

[kangarooflyer88]

I know of someone who spent 600k (of someone else's, I should add) points on a JQ PER-MEL return flight and thought they had a good deal by saving a few hundred dollars vs a cash ticket. Similarly, when arguing the value of comparative redemptions, many others have told me they "would never fly business class".

What's a round the world ticket in business class between friends?

I've also found arguing til one is blue in the face won't change someone's mind on this - and perhaps, a (very) poor value Y redemption is enough aspiration to encourage them to keep shopping at woolies and paying the annual fee on a big four credit card they've had open for years.

A lot of people don't get it. They think it's slightly more leg room. Most don't appreciate what sitting on a lie flat for 15+ hours means! Then there are those who say, I don't want to spoil myself with business class because then I'll never fly economy. Well der, that's sort of the point ain't it?

If there was no aspirational value still ascribed to Qantas points, it would be very difficult for QF to sell them. I don't feel that's the case right now. That said, I've noticed referral offers on the QFU card trending down - so perhaps things are changing (or as others have said, the finance sector doesn't need to offer as many carrots right now?)

I would argue more carrots are needed given rising interest rates meaning those who irresponsibly carry a balance month-to-month (i.e. the credit card company's ideal customers) might be less tempted to take out debt and save more (despite the fact that saving is the absolute worst thing you can do in an inflationary environment).

What I will say, and I must apologize if I trigger folks on the forum, but I think it's the truth, is that Australia doesn't have much of a credit card market. I think part of that is credit cards are highly discourage with many merchants tacking on transaction fees thereby eliminating most benefits of points accumulating cards. The fact that you have to pay a credit card surcharge when booking a QF flight should tell you everything you need to know. Elsewhere in the world, such actions are either illegal or explicitly banned by credit card company's merchant T&Cs. I will also point out that AmEx isn't widely accepted in Australia as it is elsewhere, and arguably AmEx has the best credit cards out there. What's the point in holding an AmEx Qantas Ultimate card if it can't be used at more than half the places you shop at?

Looking at my Canadian wallet, I see a number of credit cards which I would argue you would never find in Australia:

• AmEx Platinum with $700 annual fee that has almost all the perks of the Australian card (including guest access into Centurion lounges which US cards won't have next year)
• AmEx Marriott Bonvoy card - $120 annual fee but you get a 35,000 point Marriott stay voucher, 15 nights stay credit and Marriott Silver
• BRIM Financial Mastercard - No annual fee credit card with no forex fees (my go to card when buying some things in AU)
• TD Aeroplan Infinite Card - $139 annual fee but Aeroplan points no longer expire, you get a statement credit for applying for NEXUS (Global Entry), and you get things like free checked bags for you and up to 8 passengers on Air Canada operated flights

-RooFlyer88

 

[RichardMEL]

none of this is really "news" to most of us on forums like this. Multi-city tool is one's friend, as is having an idea of partner hubs, flights and options (and even knowing things like EK flies to LHR and LGW). Some enjoy the game as much as the reward.

I suspect though that the "problems" with not providing ALL possible routes for reward seats is less one of intent, but more technology. I mean the clunky multi-city tool is our friend, but the whole point that that even needs to be a thing is that it needs to be. That tool is one that used to be the main booking engine more or less and that should be all anyone need know to draw at least some reasonable conclusions - or at least assumptions.

We also know not all partners are shown online.. we also know some ports of origin like DOH are not searchable easily, and so on. Why? no idea (that part may be intent).

I do agree QF has little incentive to make the efforts to make this better though I feel - as with many of the much "loved" (insert full sarcasm here) gitches and issues - it's a technology issue causing some limitations with searches.

And no, I don't also believe in rainbows and unicorns