QF & Current Industrial Action

[Simsy85]

That's a big jump to make if you "haven't looked at either package (from eitehr side) in detail", including clauses covering termination and redundancy.

No you're taking what I said out of context....

I said it will probably end up in disputes tribunal, in which case the court will rule, usally, somewhere inbetween both claims. My point then goes on to say if QF were then to sack staff (ie they didn't get their way in the tribunal, so they just sack them) they'd find themselves in hot water (the tribunal frowns on that sort of thing, not to mention we have laws against it).

Especially with the rumblings from the Liberal Party about bringing back AWA's, my guess is that FWA would want to make a stake for relevence and they would go after QF like you wouldn't believe...

 

[Oneworldplus2]

From the ABC 7:30 Report interview on QF last week.

Wayne Mader - VIC/TAS Secretary, TWU

• Unions want a 5% wage increase
• Staff benefits and conditions are been erased
• QF CEO, AJ, gets a ~70% wage increase

Steve Purvinas - Secretary Engineers Union

• It's war between QF and Unions
• QF declared war on 35,000 staff
• 3 Unions talking to each other
• QF has a $3 'BILLION' fund to fight the unions
• QF Management wants to destroy Qantas

Olivia Wirth - QF Spokeswomen

• Baggage area workers (TWU members+non TWU workers) working for QF are paid 12% more than their VA Counterparts
• QF great company to work for
• $3 Billion in cash for the QF Group is to fund QF going forward (expansion, new planes etc)

All l can say is;

• If your at WAR with your employer, LEAVE!
• A CEO (of any top 100 asx company) has more responsibility than a low level employee (i.e., a Baggage Handler, no disrespect). Would the low level employee (Baggage Handler), if a plane crashed; be; called to court (and grilled), investigated, responsible for actions of staff/pilots on behalf of the company (and questioned on training/teaching methods/standards/SOP's and also respond to shareholders (to name a few) ????
• $3 Billion for flighting the unions. Riiiiight-e-o....
• I don't see LH, EK, SQ, TG planes falling out of the sky, the whole 'engineering jobs getting moved offshore vs safety' line is wearing thin on me

However, there are always facts related to these arguments/quarrels that the public doesn't get to see. So, until we get the whole picture (which might never happen), I guess taking sides on this issue might be futile.

 

[Simsy85]

From the ABC 7:30 Report interview on QF last week.

Wayne Mader - VIC/TAS Secretary, TWU

• Unions want a 5% wage increase
• Staff benefits and conditions are been erased
• QF CEO, AJ, gets a ~70% wage increase

Steve Purvinas - Secretary Engineers Union

• It's war between QF and Unions
• QF declared war on 35,000 staff
• 3 Unions talking to each other
• QF has a $3 'BILLION' fund to fight the unions
• QF Management wants to destroy Qantas

Olivia Wirth - QF Spokeswomen

• Baggage area workers (TWU members+non TWU workers) working for QF are paid 12% more than their VA Counterparts
• QF great company to work for
• $3 Billion in cash for the QF Group is to fund QF going forward (expansion, new planes etc)

All l can say is;

• If your at WAR with your employer, LEAVE!
• A CEO (of any top 100 asx company) has more responsibility than a low level employee (i.e., a Baggage Handler, no disrespect). Would the low level employee (Baggage Handler), if a plane crashed; be; called to court (and grilled), investigated, responsible for actions of staff/pilots on behalf of the company (and questioned on training/teaching methods/standards/SOP's and also respond to shareholders (to name a few) ????
• $3 Billion for flighting the unions. Riiiiight-e-o....
• I don't see LH, EK, SQ, TG planes falling out of the sky, the whole 'engineering jobs getting moved offshore vs safety' line is wearing thin on me

However, there are always facts related to these arguments/quarrels that the public doesn't get to see. So, until we get the whole picture (which might never happen), I guess taking sides on this issue might be futile.

I agree with you on most of that - the $3 billion to fight the unions is just horse cough, no company would spend that amount fighting the unions...

I dont agree that the pay of a VA staff has anything to do with the pay of QF... QF are constantly trying to tell us how they are different to VA, ie they are a full service carrier and Virgin are a LCC. Now that it comes to EB's and pay increases they are the same - Well QF you can't have it both ways!

I don't agree that because of a CEO's increased responsibility, he/she should be entitled to a greater pay increase (greater pay sure). Based on this assumption, JB747 should get at least a 50% pay rise! (consider that one of the 3 unions is the pilots union).

Cheers

Simsy

 

[Oneworldplus2]

I agree with you on most of that - the $3 billion to fight the unions is just horse cough, no company would spend that amount fighting the unions...

I dont agree that the pay of a VA staff has anything to do with the pay of QF... QF are constantly trying to tell us how they are different to VA, ie they are a full service carrier and Virgin are a LCC. Now that it comes to EB's and pay increases they are the same - Well QF you can't have it both ways!

I don't agree that because of a CEO's increased responsibility, he/she should be entitled to a greater pay increase (greater pay sure). Based on this assumption, JB747 should get at least a 50% pay rise! (consider that one of the 3 unions is the pilots union).

Cheers

Simsy

Simsy, JB747 is on about 100% more than his counterparts flying the same A380 aircraft for other airlines around the globe.

CEO pay is a tricky one. I guess it's up to the board?

Like l said in my previous post, unless we get a workers contract, what the unions want and what QF is offering, on paper, we'll never know....

 

[Oneworldplus2]

I dont agree that the pay of a VA staff has anything to do with the pay of QF...

If VA staff were paid 200% MORE than QF staff, l'm sure you'd be talking opposite to what you just said.

 

[Simsy85]

If VA staff were paid 200% MORE than QF staff, l'm sure you'd be talking opposite to what you just said.

Of course I would - the fact that your the highest paid in your field shouldn't restrict you from going for betterment?

being the lowest paid, well that begs it!

 

[N860CR]

Simsy, JB747 is on about 100% more than his counterparts flying the same A380 aircraft for other airlines around the globe.

Have you got some figures on that one? Would be interesting to see.

What I can't believe is how many people are buying this "trying to save the airline" BS that AJ is coming up with. Qantas is making a lot of money. A real lot for an airline, however the current management is looking at short term gains rather than into the future. The simple fact is, giving the staff a pissy little payrise isn't going to have a massive impact on the bottom line. If anything, it should improve it as all of our (yes, us AFFers) constant complaining about poor service from disgruntled employees should become less common. It's very frustrating that the current path of the company seems to be headed towards basically upsetting everyone (ie: both the staff and the customers) when a bit of forward thinking could really prevent that.

Qantas are still in one of the best positions of any airline in the world. They have a very captive customer base (through QFF) and one fairly average competitor on the domestic market (and quite rightly, they do very well on that market). International struggles a little against some top quality airlines, but remember Qantas still has that massive domestic and regional market to boost international sales. Unfortunatley, AJ and co seem to see international as a stand alone and want it gone because it doesn't make what domestic does. Hate to say it, but domestic will always make mountains more than international - it's just the way of the market. Think how many times a 767 can do SYD-MEL in the time it takes to do SYD-HNL-SYD plus there's no added cost of staff and aircraft down time. It seems very logical to me... but maybe that's why I don't work in upper management!

 

[markis10]

Simsy, JB747 is on about 100% more than his counterparts flying the same A380 aircraft for other airlines around the globe.
.

Rubbish, I dont think QF pilots get $500K, the average SQ widebody pilot just over a year ago earned a median of $271,888 per annum, a friend of mine who is an A330 CX Captain also earns that, of course in SQ you dont pay 50% tax either!

 

[Oneworldplus2]

Have you got some figures on that one? Would be interesting to see.

Google, 5 minutes


Court rules Singapore Airlines Airbus A380 pilots should be paid more

It says the base pay of a 747-400 captain is S$10,000 a month so an A380 captain will earn S$10,700.

Airliners.net

Singapore Airlines A380 Captain
Base salary: $10,855.00 / month (also SQ salary cap**) ---because he's a senior pilot.
Max flying hours: 60 /month
Hourly pay: $180.91

I think that the A380 wage has also increased to S$16,000 a month now

JB747 has already quoted a figure. l'll have a look around on AFF.

 

[markis10]

Google, 5 minutes

Court rules Singapore Airlines Airbus A380 pilots should be paid more


Airliners.net

I think that the A380 wage has also increased to S$16,000 a month now

JB747 has already quoted a figure. l'll have a look around on AFF.

Thats base pay for minimum hours, as I posted earlier the median take home before tax salary is a lot higher, for instance in 2007 which is your google datum:
http://travel.asiaone.com/Travel/News/Story/A1Story20070609-13259.html

A SINGAPORE Airlines Boeing 777 captain at the mid-point of his salary bracket makes more than $270,000 a year. This makes him a bigger earner than a vice-president of the company, who makes $233,270.

BTW the court ruled it was minimum $16500 a month in 2007 for A380 SQ Captains.

 

[Oneworldplus2]

Rubbish, I dont think QF pilots get $500K, the average SQ widebody pilot just over a year ago earned a median of $271,888 per annum, a friend of mine who is an A330 CX Captain also earns that, of course in SQ you dont pay 50% tax either!

Why so mad?

I am still looking, and when l find a better source, l'll post.

A top 747 pilot can currently earn up to $500,000 a year, while an average pilot still brings home $350,000, according to a News Limited report.

Qantas pilots demand perks and pay rises


LH Pilots
AF Pilots

 

[markis10]

Why so mad?

I am still looking, and when l find a better source, l'll post.


Qantas pilots demand perks and pay rises

Whos mad, its rubbish, based on rubbish data. Qantas pilots dont get 2X everybody else before tax, after tax (which is not a QF issue but a factor to the employee) they are in fact very close to par for their profession. Throw in the extras other airlines offer like free housing etc and the picture becomes murkier still, after call CX have 5 crew bases in Australia for their crew .

 

[markis10]

I am still looking, and when l find a better source, l'll post.

This was you are looking for:

Gross income $310k. Allowances $15k.

If I recall correctly the pay scale works with years in the rank, not on type. A pay loss on promotion is not uncommon. I'm a 20 year captain, so I haven't taken any notice of it for a long time.

The actual QF pay scale for one award:

 

[Oneworldplus2]

Yes, thank you Markis10.

Now, there were some comparison wages on A380 pilots floating around too.

 

[JohnPhelan]

AJ and co seem to see international as a stand alone and want it gone

It's really not helpful when people make up things like this. (Qantas are saying they want international fixed, not gone!)

Nor is it helpful when people say things such as an earlier post on this thread from someone who described QF management as "evil".

Sticking to facts and ditching the emotive/ideological language would be better.

 

[VHOEJ]

I agree with you on most of that - the $3 billion to fight the unions is just horse cough, no company would spend that amount fighting the unions...

I dont agree that the pay of a VA staff has anything to do with the pay of QF... QF are constantly trying to tell us how they are different to VA, ie they are a full service carrier and Virgin are a LCC. Now that it comes to EB's and pay increases they are the same - Well QF you can't have it both ways!

I don't agree that because of a CEO's increased responsibility, he/she should be entitled to a greater pay increase (greater pay sure). Based on this assumption, JB747 should get at least a 50% pay rise! (consider that one of the 3 unions is the pilots union).

Cheers

Simsy

I agree with the points as well - it is amazing how the 70% payrise for the CEO is being peddled so much. It is amazing because it is plain wrong. Some business commentators actually pointed out what Joyce got in terms of remmuneration but no one wants to believe it.

The longer this goes on, the less likely the unions are going to win. They are slowly losing the PR war - in previous years, QF would sit there and let them trash the brand. Now they are being more aggressive to them, answering them back and you can tell by the 'comments' on news sites that there is a shift towards QF on this. The unions think every passenger is on thier side - well they are sadly mistaken. Annoying the passengers in the way they are doing now doesnt increase your support - all it does is give your competition a free kick.

 

[N860CR]

It's really not helpful when people make up things like this. (Qantas are saying they want international fixed, not gone!)

It's not something made up. While Qantas have said they want to "fix" International (who says it needs fixing... Joyce came out and said earlier in the year that it's clearing $160M, however months later annouces a $200M loss), what have they actually done to "fix" it?
The A380's have been put off, the 787's are going to Jetstar, routes have been cut... cutting it back to nothing is not a way to fix it. International is not going to go anywhere without investment, and the current management don't appear interested in investing.

It's always going to be difficult for airline unions to gain public support because they represent such a small group (who are viewed as "wealthy" by the general public, or "servants" by those who matter). If you pull apart what the unions are actually asking for, there's not a hell of a lot there.

 

[rechoboam]

It's really not helpful when people make up things like this. (Qantas are saying they want international fixed, not gone!)

Nor is it helpful when people say things such as an earlier post on this thread from someone who described QF management as "evil".

Sticking to facts and ditching the emotive/ideological language would be better.

If they sold it and put the shareholders' money in the bank they'd get 6%. What are they getting now? -6%? What's the point?

 

[Berlin]

The longer this goes on, the less likely the unions are going to win. They are slowly losing the PR war - in previous years, QF would sit there and let them trash the brand. Now they are being more aggressive to them, answering them back and you can tell by the 'comments' on news sites that there is a shift towards QF on this. The unions think every passenger is on thier side - well they are sadly mistaken. Annoying the passengers in the way they are doing now doesnt increase your support - all it does is give your competition a free kick.

I couldn't agree more. My company uses Qantas as a preferred airline and not a single of my colleagues has the slightest understanding for the unions' actions: We just shaved off 10,000 jobs world wide over the past year and had to agree to not getting any pay rises during the current year. And then you get stuck at the airport and are supposed to be "understanding" to those QF employees' demands? These guys have to wake up- the times of cosy, risk free and most likely overpaid jobs are long gone whether you like it or not. Here in my company, discussions about changing sides over to Virgin are heating up again!

 

[markis10]

If they sold it and put the shareholders' money in the bank they'd get 6%. What are they getting now? -6%? What's the point?

Building up goodwill and a customer base that will be there giving you returns when 6% wont be available from a bank, which is likely to be very soon! Too often a business will look at the value of business in a short time period, rather than the life time value of their business, and its that life time value that comes to the fore in difficult trading conditions.