Oneworld and Bankruptcy?

[wilco]

What is up with Oneworld airlines and Bankrupty?
Canadian and Mexicana are gone, Malev doesn't seem to be too far behind, not to mention the troubles at JL and AA's Chapter 11 reorganisation. Kingfisher isn't even a member yet and is on some shaky footings.

I Know that Star Alliance has lost some airlines also, most notably Ansett, but Oneworld has lost more airlines from a smaller membership base.

What is going on at Oneworld HQ that makes member airlines so vulnerable?

 

[drron]

All the Alliances have had their problems.Mexicana was a former member of *A.Swiss International was formed out of the carcass of Swissair's bankruptcy.Variq got kicked out after a reorganisation.Air India's invitation withdrawn due to financial problems and of course UA and CO have both been through Chapter 11.
All proves the airline business is not a great one to be in.

 

[Alanslegal]

FWIW MH is joing mid 2012. That will bolster/open up some needed routes in the SE Asia region.

 

[markis10]

Actually Star has lost more airlines than One World, with Ansett as you mention, but also Mexicana, Shanghai and Varig. Oneworld has only lost Canadian when it merged and Aer Lingus that decided it did not suit and technically Mexicana is still there and returning (yeah right)!

 

[harvyk]

What's up with airlines and bankruptcy full stop right now...
Whilst I'm not overly familiar with *A members (outside the big ones eg UA \ LH \ AirNZ etc...) I would expect there are also some not too healthy books in them as well...

Right now the airline industry is going through massive turmoil. You have a general public who is demanding cheaper and cheaper fares, tons of small start up airlines which operate cheaply on routes without ever once turning a profit (and sometimes skimping on things like safety to even afford to be able to take off) and subsequently collapsing, but whilst running forcing the majors to drop their prices on those routes unless they want to fly empty planes.

 

[wilco]

Actually Star has lost more airlines than One World

Star has 20+ airlines, OW has half that and apart from RG, I can't think of a Star airline that no longer exists. I don't even recall Mexicana being in Star, so perhaps the memory isn't too flash, but there you have it.

It just seems to me, that as a percentage of members, OW has lost more than Star.

.Swiss International was formed out of the carcass of Swissair's bankruptcy.Variq got kicked out after a reorganisation.Air India's invitation withdrawn due to financial problems and of course UA and CO have both been through Chapter 11.

Swissair was never part of Star, until LH stepped in after its bankruptcy. RG went belly up, attempted a comeback, but failed. CO was Skyteam, and of course UA is the big one, but I don't view chapter 11 as bankruptcy per se, as it buys you time to reorganise your business while it still operates. I think it'd be fair to say that UA, whilst under chapter 11, was not technically or legally bankrupt, despite it being about as close as it could come. The same applies to AA.

 

[markis10]

Star has 20+ airlines, OW has half that and apart from RG, I can't think of a Star airline that no longer exists. I don't even recall Mexicana being in Star, so perhaps the memory isn't too flash, but there you have it.

It just seems to me, that as a percentage of members, OW has lost more than Star.

They have not lost them as such, one merged with a Star member while the said no thank you and moved on, in the context of Bankruptcy/Liquidation, only Star has lost members being Ansett and Varig. 2 from x is a lot greater then 0 from any number! Note Mexicana is still a member, hence the big fat zero in the one world ledger for bankrupt exits at time of posting.

 

[casanovawa]

SAS did just leave OW and go to *A didn't it, even though its not a bunkruptcy or anything....

 

[wilco]

They have not lost them as such, one merged with a Star member while the said no thank you and moved on, in the context of Bankruptcy/Liquidation, only Star has lost members being Ansett and Varig. 2 from x is a lot great then 0 from any number! Note Mexicana is still a member, hence the big fat zero in the one world ledger for bankrupt exits at time of posting.

Difference of opinion I suppose, but it seems to me that OW is losing members more frequently, wether via mergers, bankruptcy or by the airlines own choice. Given the size of Star, id expect it to be very much the other way around.

SAS did just leave OW and go to *A didn't it, even though its not a bunkruptcy or anything....

SAS was a founding member of Star. It was never in OW. It did codeshare with QF and CX ( I think) but of course those are now with TG and SQ.

 

[markis10]

Difference of opinion I suppose, but it seems to me that OW is losing members more frequently, wether via mergers, bankruptcy or by the airlines own choice. Given the size of Star, id expect it to be very much the other way around.

Your thread is titled Oneworld and Bankruptcy after all!

 

[wilco]

Your thread is titled Oneworld and Bankruptcy after all!

That would be because I thought Canadian was Bankrupt, when it now appears that it merged (to stave off bankruptcy), Mexicana is bankrupt and Malev seems to be next. That would have made 3 from 10 vs 2 from 20. I stand corrected on Canadian and we will see what happens with MA, JL and AA.

 

[markis10]

That would be because I thought Canadian was Bankrupt, when it now appears that it merged (to stave off bankruptcy), Mexicana is bankrupt and Malev seems to be next. That would have made 3 from 10 vs 2 from 20. I stand corrected on Canadian and we will see what happens with MA, JL and AA.

And once again I remind you that Oneworld have not lost any member due to Bankruptcy while Star have lost two at the time of writing, obviously that may change in the future but as it stands your point is a non event.

 

[wilco]

And once again I remind you that Oneworld have not lost any member due to Bankruptcy while Star have lost two at the time of writing, obviously that may change in the future but as it stands your point is a non event.

I beg to differ. Whichever way you'd like to twist and turn it, Mexicana is gone.

Perhaps the title could be changed but the reality is, OW has lost more member airlines than Star.

 

[harvyk]

I beg to differ. Whichever way you'd like to twist and turn it, Mexicana is gone.

Not quite, Mexicana has grounded their fleet \ ceased selling tickets, and is currently undergoing re-organisation under similar rules to chap 11. But last I've heard Mexicana still plans on flying again. It's no different to chapter 11 proceedings that virtually every US based airline across all 3 alliances has gone through in the past, with the exception that they are not actually flying. However that could be due to different laws they operate under.

 

[JohnPhelan]

I beg to differ. Whichever way you'd like to twist and turn it, Mexicana is gone.

Perhaps the title could be changed but the reality is, OW has lost more member airlines than Star.

And of what consequence is that, even if it were true? You can't be seriously suggesting that an airline is more or less likely to go bankrupt because of the particular alliance it's in ???

As Markis has pointed out correctly, no oneworld airline has actually, legally, been declared 'bankrupt' (and it is a term that has a particular legal meaning, whether you like it or not). Two Star airlines have gone bankrupt. But how does this relate to anything happening in the alliance?

Or is this thread another one of your wind-ups?

 

[Mal]

I think you will find airlines going bankrupt is a global issue. OneWorld just has several members that have... there is probably a wiki page, but the numbers of others are immense. Air Italia, oasis, Swiss, countless charter ones based in U.K, silverjet are only some I can quickly think of. Will try and get a more complete list later.


Sent from my GT-I9100 using AustFreqFly

 

[Simo]

This is more about how tuff it is being a commercial airline in the current market.

Again we have seen mergers and airlines becoming part of Alliances that they might never wanted to a while ago.

My business is part of a group and yes it has it's limitations but it also has a huge qty of bargaining power as well.

We are able to purchase at a lower price than our competitors so hence we can make some more money there.

Our fees to be part of the group are more than the cost of a luxury car.

I would envisage that maybe being part of either *alliance and OWE maybe they get better buying power on fuel maybe they get lower fees at certain airports and the list could go on and on with that speculation.

 

[dajop]

Actually Star has lost more airlines than One World, with Ansett as you mention, but also Mexicana, Shanghai and Varig. Oneworld has only lost Canadian when it merged and Aer Lingus that decided it did not suit and technically Mexicana is still there and returning (yeah right)!

To be pedantic, using same argument re Canadian, Star only lost Shanghai when it merged with (or was taken over by) China Eastern.

I think bankruptcy is probably not the right word as it has legal definition. Better question which alliance has had the most "basket cases"!

Star: Ansett, Varig, one could argue BMI, and one could also argue NZ until rescued by the govt. Then add the Chapter 11's of US, UA, lost opportunity of Air India
Oneworld: Canadian, Malev, Mexicana (were they a basket case when in star?) Chapter 11: AA; And Kingfisher isn't looking all that rosy either. And let's not forget JL's near death experience.
Skyteam: ?? Don't know enough about these. But, did CO, NW and DL all go into Chapter 11 when in Skyteam?

Moral to story? Airlines are either mismanaged, subject to macroeconomic and/or competitive factors and go out of business one way or another. Or they get restructured under some form of protection. It seems alliances don't necessarily help prevent this, and one alliance seems no better or worse than another.

 

[wilco]

Or is this thread another one of your wind-ups?

It was a simple question as to why OW has lost a disproportionate number of airlines since its inception and why so many of those remaining are in financial trouble. JL and AA are in trouble, MA it seems is in even worse financial health, CP is gone and MX is on life support with little to no hope of surviving.

I know that every alliance has its problems and even airlines outside of alliances, but it just seems to me that OW has more than its fair share of drama.

Other than that, you can consider it what you will as I don't really see how or whom it is intended to "wind up", other than staunch QF/OW lovers who couldn't possibly tolerate a bad word being said about "their" airline and alliance.

I think bankruptcy is probably not the right word as it has legal definition. Better question which alliance has had the most "basket cases"!

I think you could be onto something here.......

 

[docjames]

/old saying/

To make a small fortune out of the airline business, first start with a large one.....