Lasers and aircraft.

[gwilli1]

( Split thread, this post has been edited to make sense post split.)

While monitoring ATC frequencies just heard another laser attack on an incoming aircraft , i think it was JQ767 from Adelaide ...god there are some idiots out there.

 

[munitalP]

Not condoning stupidity from some members of the public, but I find it inconceivable that a laser (usually low intensity - i.e. anything battery operated that does not require liquid nitrogen cooling) can be shone from the ground up toward an AC and go into the coughpit. Possibly from side of if the AC if it is passing a mountain or very high building on take off or final approach, but the physics does not allow any other way into the coughpit!

Is this a lot of hyperbole or a genuine issue?

 

[mannej]

I am sure JB can offer an answer regarding the issue of lasers

 

[opusman]

I've always thought the danger from laser pointers has been dramatically overstated by the media/politicians/police.

I mean, have you ever actually tried to aim a hand-held laser pointer at anything more than a few tens of meters away? It's hard enough to get the dot to focus on a stationary point, let alone track a moving aircraft at several hundred kph.

 

[mannej]

I can see similarities in the question about lasers to the lightening thread.

JB is probably the best member to answer the question I would think.

 

[medhead]

One of my colleagues is consulted by police about these incidents all the time. They are a very real threat. Green laser points greater than 1 mW imported by mail order. Apparently the entire coughpit can be filled with green light.

 

[Simo]

So basically the laser pointer that I have used for work presentations is not going to harm a pilot landing we would have to get one for that exact reason..

 

[medhead]

So basically the laser pointer that I have used for work presentations is not going to harm a pilot landing we would have to get one for that exact reason..

If it is a red laser pointer less than 1 mW all is good. It has to be marked with the class and power. Green laser pointers are used for astronomy as the light readily scatters from atmospheric particles and hence are really good for pointing out objects - as in see that star, third from the left vs *point* that's Canus minor.

Anyway there can be a range of issues with these laser pointers - not labelled, incorrectly labelled, or power vastly exceeding the rating, which can be related to the power decreasing over the first 6 months. Depending on power rating they are enough to cause temporary sight problems, not least being dazzling the pilot and distraction.

 

[markis10]

Not condoning stupidity from some members of the public, but I find it inconceivable that a laser (usually low intensity - i.e. anything battery operated that does not require liquid nitrogen cooling) can be shone from the ground up toward an AC and go into the coughpit. Possibly from side of if the AC if it is passing a mountain or very high building on take off or final approach, but the physics does not allow any other way into the coughpit!

Is this a lot of hyperbole or a genuine issue?

It's a genuine issue, and if you can see the ground from the coughpit then rest assured the laser can paint you from that ground, especially at night where the coughpit is dark and the laser can temporarily destroy night vision. A quick search of the NASA ASRS database proves it's pretty common:

http://akama.arc.nasa.gov/ASRSDBOnline/QueryWizard_Display.aspx

An air carrier crew was tracked by a laser for approximately 45 seconds while ten miles northeast of PHL on base and both pilots reported aftereffects.

An Air Carrier First Officer reported a green laser strike descending on the SJC HYP5 STAR 10 miles east of PAPEE Intersection at 15,000 FT

A corporate jet Captain reported being struck with a laser on approach to IND. He experienced discomfort in his right eye the day after the event.

A B757 flight crew reported that on approach to PHX the Captain was struck in the left eye with a laser. It temporarily degraded his vision enough that he turned the approach and landing over to the First Officer

 

[simongr]

Maybe worth splitting out the laser posts into a separate thread?

 

[Stephen65]

If it is a red laser pointer less than 1 mW all is good. It has to be marked with the class and power. Green laser pointers are used for astronomy as the light readily scatters from atmospheric particles and hence are really good for pointing out objects - as in see that star, third from the left vs *point* that's Canus minor.

There's also a use for green lasers in astronomy as an aid to setting up equatorial telescope mounts: you can attach a laser to the mount's polar axis and see exactly where the mount is "pointing". This makes it a lot quicker and easier to align the mount axis to the south celestial pole than by using older methods. Some people also used to use lasers as an aid to locating objects in telescope finders.

Unfortunately due to the actions of fools the Victorian government has completely overreacted concerning the use of lasers so that even for completely legitimate uses such as astronomy you need to go through such a hassle with police checks and expensive yearly licences that it's not worthwhile anymore to use lasers at all.

 

[Travel Guru]

I mean, have you ever actually tried to aim a hand-held laser pointer at anything more than a few tens of meters away? It's hard enough to get the dot to focus on a stationary point, let alone track a moving aircraft at several hundred kph.

Go for a walk down Patpong Road in BKK and you'll find lasers capable of being shone hundreds of metres or more without losing any clarity.

TG

 

[markis10]

Someone was painting the city with a green one on Saturday night in Brisbane, including Parliment and Quay West, it was very bright from home in Kangaroo Point.

 

[opusman]

Go for a walk down Patpong Road in BKK and you'll find lasers capable of being shone hundreds of metres or more without losing any clarity.

It's not the "clarity" of the laser that's the issue, it's the ability of normal humans to hand-hold a spot of light on a fast moving target at distances exceeding several hundred metres. Unless the people doing this are using telescope mounts with some sort of auto-tracking system I simply don't believe it can be possible to do what the media/police claim that people do.

 

[markis10]

It's not the "clarity" of the laser that's the issue, it's the ability of normal humans to hand-hold a spot of light on a fast moving target at distances exceeding several hundred metres. Unless the people doing this are using telescope mounts with some sort of auto-tracking system I simply don't believe it can be possible to do what the media/police claim that people do.

Considering there were 2836 reports filed to the FAA regarding such events in the US alone in 2010, and over 1100 in the first 5 months of this year, its an issue!

 

[Travel Guru]

It's not the "clarity" of the laser that's the issue, it's the ability of normal humans to hand-hold a spot of light on a fast moving target at distances exceeding several hundred metres. Unless the people doing this are using telescope mounts with some sort of auto-tracking system I simply don't believe it can be possible to do what the media/police claim that people do.

Does anyone ever do what the media claims they've done? :mrgreen::mrgreen:

TG

 

[Pushka]

Not condoning stupidity from some members of the public, but I find it inconceivable that a laser (usually low intensity - i.e. anything battery operated that does not require liquid nitrogen cooling) can be shone from the ground up toward an AC and go into the coughpit. Possibly from side of if the AC if it is passing a mountain or very high building on take off or final approach, but the physics does not allow any other way into the coughpit!

Is this a lot of hyperbole or a genuine issue?

I have often thought this too, after observing Denpasar airport in Bali. The airport is right next to the Jimbaran Bay Barbeque markets, and there are lasers pointing all over the place and they are very strong lasers going into the distance. The planes come in about every five minutes it seems, but not one have I heard about any issues with regard to lasers.

 

[harvyk]

It's not the "clarity" of the laser that's the issue, it's the ability of normal humans to hand-hold a spot of light on a fast moving target at distances exceeding several hundred metres. Unless the people doing this are using telescope mounts with some sort of auto-tracking system I simply don't believe it can be possible to do what the media/police claim that people do.

Two things,

1. A fast moving target, sure if you at close range and standing side on, however to get the light into the coughpit you would need to be standing in front of the aircraft, whilst still a "fast moving target", because it's coming straight for you it would be relatively easy to point a laser in the general direction and hit the target.

which brings me onto 2

2. For a laser to do damage, even just to the point of reducing night vision, long exposure to the beam would not be necessary. Half a second would cause a person to lose night vision temporarily, and given that it's typically landing planes which are targeted (it would be an easier target) temporary loss of night vision at a critical moment could be deadly.

 

[ben7k]

I have had a green laser pointed into my car while driving on the Tullamarine Freeway in Melbourne, while it didn't go directly in to my eyes, it certainly was a major distraction. It happened between the Western Ring Road and Mickleham Road, where there are not any overpasses over the freeway, so I have no idea where it came from. I did consider calling the police or 000 at the time, and in hind sight I should have just reported it to the Federal Police office at the base of the car park, but got distracted for various reasons when I got to the airport (now that's another story). It did cross my mind that the idiots doing this may have also been targeting aircraft nearby, although the location where I got hit was not near any of the approach paths to the airport.

 

[munitalP]

Two things,

1. A fast moving target, sure if you at close range and standing side on, however to get the light into the coughpit you would need to be standing in front of the aircraft, whilst still a "fast moving target", because it's coming straight for you it would be relatively easy to point a laser in the general direction and hit the target.

which brings me onto 2

2. For a laser to do damage, even just to the point of reducing night vision, long exposure to the beam would not be necessary. Half a second would cause a person to lose night vision temporarily, and given that it's typically landing planes which are targeted (it would be an easier target) temporary loss of night vision at a critical moment could be deadly.

I don't think anyone is arguing the point of coming in to land such as the image in markis10 pic, however, a laser shining through the coughpit window of a 737 20km out from SYD would mean that:

1. Light suddenly bends - Albert's going to be quite upset about this
2. there are some very tall people / structures in Sydney
3. The aircraft is conducting barrel rolls on final approach*
4. Boeing has suddenly put windows in the floor for that "more accurate landing" ability

I don't believe that the hyperbole is overly factual for aircraft in established flight, also, holding a target of say 1m square (i.e. window) while the target is moving at 2 or 300 km per hour (let alone cruising speed) for even a few milliseconds from a distance of >1000m would need a pretty sophisticated tracking device. It would be easier to shine the laser on the fuselage, but even then, it would be more fluke than good management...

MHO....







*my fav reason!