Why did AJ exclude JQi from his figures? The 82% Myth!

[serfty]

9There's an article today that quotes the 82%: Qantas should get support as it fights for survival | Herald Sun

To Quote part the above article:

One statistic used by Joyce on Tuesday ...

""Of every 100 people who fly out of Australia 82 are choosing to fly with an airline other than Qantas.""

That is not what Joyce stated. The text¹ is:

Right now 82 out of every 100 people flying out of Australia are choosing to fly with an airline other than Qantas, not including Jetstar.

Aside from the fact that this 82% has become almost folk law why did Joyce omit Jetstar? What benefit does this obfuscation gain him?

BITRE May 2011 figures² show Jetstar accounted for 8.2% of International Passengers. Qantas accounted for 18.4%.

If you include these Jetstar figures then you have 73% of international passengers are choosing an airline other than a Qantas group. Still not good for Qantas but not as bad as 82%.

¹ http://www.qantasanswers.com.au/media/736/building_a_stronger_qantas_-_sydney_-_16_august_2011.pdf

² http://www.bitre.gov.au/publications/11/Files/0511_M.pdf#page=11

 

[awilcockson]

Aside from the fact that this 82% has become almost folk law why did Joyce omit Jetstar? What benefit does this obfuscation gain him?

Because it gives him an excuse "oh look the world is coming to an end" to off shore QFi and get to his eventual goal of jetstardising all of QF.

 

[oz_mark]

Aside from the fact that this 82% has become almost folk law why did Joyce omit Jetstar? What benefit does this obfuscation gain him?

http://www.bitre.gov.au/publications/11/Files/0511_M.pdf#page=11

Because the context of his quote was Qantas International.

 

[harvyk]

Because the context of his quote was Qantas International.

True, but it's still very misleading, it's not like QFi fought against JQi and lost, QFi handed over a good market share to JQi, and then pulled out of OS ports (either fully or effectively with only token representation) where there is obviously still a desire for people to travel there.

 

[oz_mark]

True, but it's still very misleading, it's not like QFi fought against JQi and lost, QFi handed over a good market share to JQi, and then pulled out of OS ports (either fully or effectively with only token representation) where there is obviously still a desire for people to travel there.

I disagree. There has been comment on here about confusion regarding Qantas the airline, and Qantas the company. When he was quite explicit about what he was referring to it gets deemed misleading.

 

[medhead]

Unfortunately this could be taken as confirmation that jetstar is a competitor to qantas. Freudian slip?

Because the context of his quote was Qantas International.

That may be the context but it is misleading nonetheless.

 

[medhead]

I disagree. There has been comment on here about confusion regarding Qantas the airline, and Qantas the company. When he was quite explicit about what he was referring to it gets deemed misleading.

But he can't have it both ways. Joyce/qantas group have clearly claimed that jetstar was not created to compete with qantas airline. But now he is grouping jetstar pax with those not flying on QFi. That is either misleading or he is lying about jetstar not being in competition with QF.

 

[serfty]

The figure I have pointed to are indeed international.

May ratios for international passengers: QF 18.4% JQ 8.2.

That 8.2% is significant.

If JQ's international traffic was included in the figures, and AJ also includes them as part of the QF group the the "Qantas Group" share is 26.6%.

 

[connieguy]

Unfortunately this could be taken as confirmation that jetstar is a competitor to qantas. Freudian slip?

That may be the context but it is misleading nonetheless.

Correct it is misleading and appears to have been designed to do just that. They AJ played the look what happened to Ansett card. Also misleading as QF are not going broke or even close to it.

Bottom line is Qantasia will, IMHO and over time, replace QFi as nothing QF are doing will address the "Cost Issues" even though QF pays it's international pilots less than CX does.

 

[harvyk]

I disagree. There has been comment on here about confusion regarding Qantas the airline, and Qantas the company. When he was quite explicit about what he was referring to it gets deemed misleading.

He might have been talking about QFi, but sitting there complaining that your market share is only 18% is a little hollow when you've deliberately set up a new entity which takes a third of your pax, esp when there is talk about cross subsidisation of JQ by QF (in fact can anyone confirm this or is this just part of the rumour mill?)

If they built JQ as it's own airline, with QF simply being a noncontrolling shareholder in it, and directly competed for pax (in other words no cancelled QF routes to be replaced by JQ) then that would have been a different story.

 

[dajop]

The problem with the whole debate and discussion around QFi and JQi is there is no differentiation of short haul (NZ, Fiji, Bali) that can be serviced by narrow bodies & long haul services (everywhere else). Two very different markets.

If you exclude Bali & NZ services from the discussion and analysis , IIRC there is really only three routes that were "handed" to JQi from QFi, namely CNS-NRT and CNS-KIX (and maybe the now disbanded CNS-NGO), as well as DRW-SIN. Three routes they operate in tandem/addition to QF - PER-SIN, SYD-HNL & MEL-SIN and the other routes are "novel" - SYD-HKT, DRW-SGN, DRW-MNL & MEL-BKK (bearing in mind MEL-BKK QF services were axed well before JQ was established).

 

[medhead]

Just on the accounts breaking news on The Oz website that qantas has offered to show the books to the unions

 

[serfty]

The figures certainly were for intnertational departures: AJ: "people flying out of Australia".

 

[connieguy]

But he can't have it both ways. Joyce/qantas group have clearly claimed that jetstar was not created to compete with qantas airline. But now he is grouping jetstar pax with those not flying on QFi. That is either misleading or he is lying about jetstar not being in competition with QF.

Of course JQ is in competition with QF. When I buy a JQ *Class ticket to Bkk it cost me A$899 and for that I earn 120 SCs. QF can not come close to that fare so JQ have taken my business away from QF. However in the end of the day JQ is 100% owned by QF and so my money does end up in the QF accounts.

For AJ to have not included JQ in his figures is manipulating figures to achieve a desired outcome.

We need to accept that in around 5 or less years QFi will probably only do a few token long haul international runs such as Syd/Sin/Lhr, Syd/Lax and Syd/Dfw to keep the QF white roo tail flying and be in compliance with the Qantas Sale Act. JQ, with a few 744s, could do the bulk of the Aus/Us heavy lifting using Sin based and crewed aircraft.

 

[delsbells]

So where are the other 73% of aussies flying to? Why isn't Qantas trying to actually target getting new customers rather than winding down their existing customers. If Qantas actually flew to places I wanted to go(ie southern europe) and they were competitive with other airlines they might get more customers. How does Singapore airlines do it? They offer a quality product that people are willing to pay for so what has happened to Qantas - they seem to have slipped dramatically.

 

[markis10]

So where are the other 73% of aussies flying to? Why isn't Qantas trying to actually target getting new customers rather than winding down their existing customers. If Qantas actually flew to places I wanted to go(ie southern europe) and they were competitive with other airlines they might get more customers. How does Singapore airlines do it? They offer a quality product that people are willing to pay for so what has happened to Qantas - they seem to have slipped dramatically.

If you have a look at the yields on QF you will find they are very good, to the extent that they leave JQ for dead in a lot of cases and most of the competitors, however those planes cost more to run so QF at 80% make less than SQ or CX at 60% through a combination of staff costs and poor fleet renewal timing/aircraft selection.

I am not sure others are doing well, SQ only made SGD$11M in the three months to June.

 

[harvyk]

How does Singapore airlines do it? .

by existing in a very stratgic position. same with ek and other me airlines...

 

[harvyk]

does anyone know if the 18% figure includes jetconnect?

 

[serfty]

does anyone know if the 18% figure includes jetconnect?

I am very confident it would. Look to the Trans-Tasman stats in the BITRE link I posted in the OP.

 

[ozbeachbabe]

8

The problem with the whole debate and discussion around QFi and JQi is there is no differentiation of short haul (NZ, Fiji, Bali) that can be serviced by narrow bodies & long haul services (everywhere else). Two very different markets.

If you exclude Bali & NZ services from the discussion and analysis , IIRC there is really only three routes that were "handed" to JQi from QFi, namely CNS-NRT and CNS-KIX (and maybe the now disbanded CNS-NGO), as well as DRW-SIN. Three routes they operate in tandem/addition to QF - PER-SIN, SYD-HNL & MEL-SIN and the other routes are "novel" - SYD-HKT, DRW-SGN, DRW-MNL & MEL-BKK (bearing in mind MEL-BKK QF services were axed well before JQ was established).

So if you are booked on a QF codeshare flight eg MEL/SIN/MEL, DRW/SGN/DRW etc that's operated by JQ metal, whose stats do you fall in to? The QF 16% or the JQ 8%?