☕ What's your definition of "good" coffee?

[jase05]

If I’m forced to drink from a paper cup I at least take the lid off.

Yes, yes, yes
First thing I do when handed the paper cup

 

[DejaBrew]

but Steven ter Horst Chocolatier Hyde Park- Artisan Gifts this guy makes a fantastic one

Hopefully he’s better at making hot chocolate than he is at maintaining his website…



We’re in late August. Time to update the messaging buddy…

Haven't used a hotel kettle since learning that some guests boil their soiled underwear in them!

 

[offshore171]

And cook raw chicken in them too apparently. Yikes. I'll never look at a hotel kettle the same way again.

People keep boiling dirty pants in hotel kettles due to disgusting 'travel hack'

According to hotel workers, people have a habit of boiling their dirty knickers and pants in hotel kettles to wash them – as well as cooking food in coffee makers

www.dailystar.co.uk

 

[Katie]

Barista coffee, where possible, with my home barista.

Most work days I'm happy enough with the coffee machine that grinds beans and makes me a long black when I press the button! Decided last year to stop spending $6/day on coffee as the machine is decent enough.

In the US, I do drink Starbucks, Mr Katie developed a fondness for it during his time living there.

Would have to be desperate to do instant.

 

[DejaBrew]

I prefer my coffee barista-made, but after deciding to reduce my milk-based coffee consumption, have also developed a taste for pour overs.

Agree with others re: the availability of good coffee - or lack thereof - in the US. Had one of the worst cappuccinos I’ve encountered in my life whilst visiting San Francisco!! Europe has been hit and miss in my experience. Asia is slowly improving, especially in Japan.

Always on the lookout for a good cafe offering, but like being able to make at home as well. Have been using a Breville Dual Boiler for the best part of a decade or so, but sadly it’s reached the end of its (financially viable) serviceable life. “Slumming it” with Nespresso pods for now whilst I save up for my next machine. The problem is, once you go down the rabbit hole, it gets very expensive, very quickly!

Might be a separate thread, but I’d love to hear from other AFFers about their home coffee setups and recommendations. Seems we’ve got some home enthusiasts aboard this flight.

 

[Seat0B]

The first thing I always notice when I enter the QF Domestic Lounge in either SYD or MEL to wait for my final leg home to CBR after an international trip is the smell of barista coffee - that and bacon (especially after being in the Middle East).

I have a lot of views on coffee, which you'll recall if you read my last Trip Report from Japan! For example, us making a flat white (sorta) one coffee creamer at a time in Shiga Kogen



So here are my inputs, for what it's worth:

Coffee that is not worth drinking (in no particular order, they are all dreadful)

• American coffee (eg in a diner of from one of those kona machines or budget hotel buffet breakfast. Bonus negative points if using coffee creamer)
• Japanese coffee (= American coffee imposed into Japan?)
• Turkish coffee cf Greek coffee, Eastern European coffee etc (don't like all the bitter grounds that I inevitably drink)
• Coffee on a plane (also tea on a plane)
• Instant coffee (nope, not even if I am hanging out for caffeine - I'd rather drink coke than instant coffee!)
• Excessively fancied up/overly sweet coffees (you know, with whipped cream and syrup and sprinkles and....)
• Themed coffees (eg pumpkin spice latte, sakura latte etc)

Coffee that is OK, not great, but serviceable

• Pod coffee (especially if you make it with care - short water runs, nice pods, heated milk, good crema)
• Starbucks Flat White after 2 weeks without anything better
• Machine coffee - often found this in Japan and Europe for hotel breakfasts and sometimes at ski resorts

Good coffee

• The first one of the day
• A flat white made with care by an Aussie barista
• A flat white made with care by a foreign barista who studied in Australia and worked as a barista to pay their way through their course

Pet hates

• Takeaway cups - a necessary evil if you have to take the coffee away and don't have a keep cup or travel mug, but when I am sitting down and drinking in your cafe, for all that is holy, pleeeeease give me a china cup/mug
• Coffee that is served lukewarm
• Related to this, baristas that refuse to make it hotter, even when I ask for extra hot (OK Boomer, I know - but it's my coffee and I like it hot)

Cultural Coffee

• I don't mind the cardamom spiced sweet black sludge served all over the middle east. Hilariously, Seat Son, who lives there cannot stand this type of coffee.
• I will usually try the local coffee once out of curiosity and cultural respect, but usually revert to my preferred coffees or nothing fairly fast after that
• I was super disappointed in most Italian coffees served in Italy
• I like Vietnamese iced coffee, and similar ones served all around Asia
• I like a coffee with a view - the view can distract me from average coffee
• I have had some surprisingly good coffees on European trains, particularly on ÖBB (Austria)

 

[offshore171]

Related to this, baristas that refuse to make it hotter, even when I ask for extra hot (OK Boomer, I know - but it's my coffee and I like it hot)

Great post. I will comment on the temperature thing though.

If you're having a long black/americano, no real issue taking it hot. The espresso shot comes out at around 93C and a good cafe will add hot water at around 80C.

Story is different with milk drinks though - there are some limitations. The steamed milk used for milk based drinks like cappuccinos and lattes can't just be heated to any temperature near boiling.

It will curdle and go sour at around 70C. Most cafes steam the milk to about 65 or so.

Given these drinks are about 1 part espresso to 5+ parts milk, the absolute max temp they can be served without spoiling the milk is about 70C. You can raise this by ordering a cortado or macchiato, since the milk ratio is lower.

Side note: People who grew up with instant coffee often expect all coffee to be extremely hot. This is because instant coffee is about 10 parts boiling water to about 1 part cold milk. Hence the resulting drink remains extremely hot.

So, if using standard preparation methods, from hottest to coolest it's pretty much

Instant
Pourover and Black Espresso based coffees
Short milk based espresso drinks (Cortado/Macchiato)
Long milk based espresso (capp/latte etc)

 

[DejaBrew]

Story is different with milk drinks though - there are some limitations. The steamed milk used for milk based drinks like cappuccinos and lattes can't just be heated to any temperature near boiling.

It will curdle and go sour at around 70C. Most cafes steam the milk to about 65 or so.

Don’t disagree that there are limits, but I concur with @Seat0B that as the paying customer, you have a right to request for it to be hot. A good barista will know how far they can take it and can therefore achieve a hot / extra hot coffee vs whatever temp they normally serve. Not everyone wants to be able to “slam it down fast” like they’re drinking a can of Solo…

 

[justinbrett]

Related to this, baristas that refuse to make it hotter, even when I ask for extra hot (OK Boomer, I know - but it's my coffee and I like it hot)

On this I have to disagree strongly, except if you are drinking a non-dairy milk or lactose free.

Once cows milk is heated above 65 degrees C the lactose breaks down and you lose the natural sweetness, making your drink more bitter.

I’ve got no problems with baristas doing this for people on request but don’t scorch my milk when I don’t ask for it. It is probably my number one way of identifying a bad barista.

It will curdle and go sour at around 70C. Most cafes steam the milk to about 65 or so.

It doesn’t curdle, but yes the taste goes off from the lack of lactose.

Don’t disagree that there are limits, but I concur with @Seat0B that as the paying customer, you have a right to request for it to be hot. A good barista will know how far they can take it and can therefore achieve a hot / extra hot coffee vs whatever temp they normally serve. Not everyone wants to be able to “slam it down fast” like they’re drinking a can of Solo…

I’d be OK if they do this but explain to the customer the cost of those few extra degrees. I’m almost certain most people who ask for this don’t know.

There are things you can do to keep it warm (eg heat the cup beforehand) and a well designed cup or mug that will keep it warm long enough for most drinkers.

 

[StayGoldPonyboy]

which was about a 10 minute walk from Borough Markets. Now I know you can get decent coffee there, however I wanted to go somewhere closer to where we were staying ... first thing next morning I followed the smell of coffee to a little joint around the corner and even from outside the coffee-shop I heard the New Zealand accent coming from behind the coffee-machine and knew I'd found the right place ...

@Forg was the cafe called Lantana?
(its in Borough High St and the coffee was much better than Monmouth even)

(Edit: Sorry for weird formatting above, was quote/replying to Forg not sure what happened)

 

[VPS]

H

Hopefully he’s better at making hot chocolate than he is at maintaining his website…

View attachment 404079

We’re in late August. Time to update the messaging buddy…

He is very good at making hot chocolate and lots of other chocolates. I'm a regular. I'll have a word next time I'm down there

 

[VPS]

which was about a 10 minute walk from Borough Markets. Now I know you can get decent coffee there, however I wanted to go somewhere closer to where we were staying ... first thing next morning I followed the smell of coffee to a little joint around the corner and even from outside the coffee-shop I heard the New Zealand accent coming from behind the coffee-machine and knew I'd found the right place ...

@Forg was the cafe called Lantana?
(its in Borough High St and the coffee was much better than Monmouth even)

(Edit: Sorry for weird formatting above, was quote/replying to Forg not sure what happened)

There are quite a few Lantanas in London. I went to the one in Borough High St. Booked on the app and got an confirmatory email but no record of my booking when I got there. I explained about my allergies and they were just not helpful or caring. There's a QR code on the table to pay your bill which includes a 14% service charge which is a bit higher than normal and then they slugged me 69p for paying via the app. I was not impressed - no idea what their coffee was like because I don't drink it but wouldn't go back there

 

[Askance]

Most chocolate has sugar as the first ingredient and I avoid that at all cost.

koko black has got good hot chocolate but Steven ter Horst Chocolatier Hyde Park- Artisan Gifts this guy makes a fantastic one

There are the odd places that make a decent hot chocolate but they are rare

Staying in Manchester for a week recently I was addicted to the range of twenty different hot chocolates that Knoops offer.

Our drinks menu - Knoops Luxury Hot Chocolate

Our menu of over 20 different % chocolates is available in all stores. Choose your favourite and discover your perfect chocolate drink.

knoops.co.uk

64% single origin Peru was my favourite (hints of raisin and figs), and i tracked down one of their shops in London as well, just for a last taste before moving on. Cant wait for the single origin hot chocolate trend to arrive in Australia.

 

[Seat0B]

On this I have to disagree strongly, except if you are drinking a non-dairy milk or lactose free.

Once cows milk is heated above 65 degrees C the lactose breaks down and you lose the natural sweetness, making your drink more bitter.

I’ve got no problems with baristas doing this for people on request but don’t scorch my milk when I don’t ask for it. It is probably my number one way of identifying a bad barista.



It doesn’t curdle, but yes the taste goes off from the lack of lactose.



I’d be OK if they do this but explain to the customer the cost of those few extra degrees. I’m almost certain most people who ask for this don’t know.

There are things you can do to keep it warm (eg heat the cup beforehand) and a well designed cup or mug that will keep it warm long enough for most drinkers.

So first up, I have NEVER had a curdled or sour coffee or even bad tasting coffee served to me anywhere in the world related to heat of milk. Sometimes the coffee is bitter even at low milk temps, and I am told this is most likely due to blunt blades in the grinder, poor cleaning and descaling and/or blend with a lot of robusta coffee or scorching during roasting.

Secondly, after my extensive experience with onsens, I know what water at 45 degrees feels like .So I can be absolutely certain that coffee served literally lukewarm is nowhere near the desirable temperature of around 65 that you suggest. If I can put my finger in it for several seconds and not feel the urgent need to withdraw it, then it’s certainly not 65 degrees or actually even 45. I think the baristas are often under time pressure to get people served quickly and they scrimp on time spent to steam the milk, thus giving people a less than optimal temperature. And sometimes they just use milk that was heated previously and is left over in the jug. Additionally, I have never had scalded milk, despite many places giving me adequately hot coffee - a lot without even being asked to make sure it’s hot.

And thirdly - you are totally right about pre-warming the cup, which I do at home for all hot drinks, but I have NEVER seen a barista do this when I buy a coffee.

I’m not a toddler, it’s not a baby chino, it should be decently hot. Many baristas manage to get it exactly right. But I hate the condescending supercilious ones that outright refuse to make my drink how I want it. Which is decently hot.

 

[offshore171]

Coffee that is not worth drinking (in no particular

• Japanese coffee (= American coffee imposed into Japan?)

Generally agree, although I'm a bit of a give it a try "when in rome" person, and have on occasion tried the "canned" hot coffees in Japan. For the cultural experience

That said, Japan does have a pretty strong, if emerging, speciality coffee scene, but the absolute standout is Korea. Seoul has hands down the best quality coffee at independent cafes anywhere I've tried outside Australia.

• Turkish coffee cf Greek coffee, Eastern European coffee etc (don't like all the bitter grounds that I inevitably drink)

Also a when in rome thing, I tried turkish when visiting Cyprus - although they call it "cyprus coffee". Agree it's pretty awful, very gritty.

• Coffee on a plane (also tea on a plane)
• Instant coffee (nope, not even if I am hanging out for caffeine - I'd rather drink coke than instant coffee!)
• Excessively fancied up/overly sweet coffees (you know, with whipped cream and syrup and sprinkles and....)
• Themed coffees (eg pumpkin spice latte, sakura latte etc)

Yes all terrible examples of coffee. I dont get the whole syrups thing. Want a milkshake, order a milkshake!

Coffee that is OK, not great, but serviceable

• Pod coffee (especially if you make it with care - short water runs, nice pods, heated milk, good crema)

These are pretty nice to find in your hotel room. A passable coffee right there in the room.

• Machine coffee - often found this in Japan and Europe for hotel breakfasts and sometimes at ski resorts

These auto machines are fine for those purposes, however in parts of germany and france they use them in cafes, which is a bit sub par.

Who remembers the old school coffee vending machines, about the size of a coke machine, where the little cup would drop down, and you press a button of your choice and the cup gets filled from a nozzle. I once saw one that had every style of coffee, plus hot chocolate and even chicken soup all from the same nozzle. Yikes!

Good coffee

• The first one of the day
• A flat white made with care by an Aussie barista

Saw a cafe in Boston with a sign out the front promoting the fact they had Australian baristas!

• A flat white made with care by a foreign barista who studied in Australia and worked as a barista to pay their way through their course

Encountered this in Korea

Pet hates

• Takeaway cups - a necessary evil if you have to take the coffee away and don't have a keep cup or travel mug, but when I am sitting down and drinking in your cafe, for all that is holy, pleeeeease give me a china cup/mug

Yep crockery wins for sure. As someone else mentioned earlier, the worst sin with the takeaway is drinking it with the lid on. It could be the best cup of coffee ever made, but you'd never know drinking with a lid.

Not everyone wants to be able to “slam it down fast” like they’re drinking a can of Solo…

Isn't the correct way to slam down a can of solo, to have half the contents run down on the outside of your throat? That's how the ads used to show it

But I hate the condescending supercilious ones that outright refuse to make my drink how I want it.

Let me guess what this barista looks like: Ironic hipster beard, sleeve tattoos and buddy holly style spectacles? Close?

And thirdly - you are totally right about pre-warming the cup, which I do at home for all hot drinks, but I have NEVER seen a barista do this when I buy a coffee.

The top of most good espresso machines is designed to be a cup warming area, and it's very effective. They should be keeping their clean crockery there, warmed up and ready to roll.

 

[justinbrett]

So first up, I have NEVER had a curdled or sour coffee or even bad tasting coffee served to me anywhere in the world related to heat of milk. Sometimes the coffee is bitter even at low milk temps, and I am told this is most likely due to blunt blades in the grinder, poor cleaning and descaling and/or blend with a lot of robusta coffee or scorching during roasting.

Secondly, after my extensive experience with onsens, I know what water at 45 degrees feels like .So I can be absolutely certain that coffee served literally lukewarm is nowhere near the desirable temperature of around 65 that you suggest. If I can put my finger in it for several seconds and not feel the urgent need to withdraw it, then it’s certainly not 65 degrees or actually even 45. I think the baristas are often under time pressure to get people served quickly and they scrimp on time spent to steam the milk, thus giving people a less than optimal temperature. And sometimes they just use milk that was heated previously and is left over in the jug. Additionally, I have never had scalded milk, despite many places giving me adequately hot coffee - a lot without even being asked to make sure it’s hot.

And thirdly - you are totally right about pre-warming the cup, which I do at home for all hot drinks, but I have NEVER seen a barista do this when I buy a coffee.

I’m not a toddler, it’s not a baby chino, it should be decently hot. Many baristas manage to get it exactly right. But I hate the condescending supercilious ones that outright refuse to make my drink how I want it. Which is decently hot.

Ah, so by the sounds of it you don’t actually want it extra hot, you just want it at the correct temp . Fair enough.

My only advice is be picky about the coffee shops you frequent. Overly bitter coffee is a cardinal sin and they’d go on my blacklist forever. Any decent shop should be prewarming cups. Overheating the milk isn’t going to fix a bad coffee.

 

[kookaburra75]

Interesting reading through the comments. MrsK (who is a self declared coffee snob) would agree it is akin to a religious experience. Thankfully for me, I only drink long blacks, and so does she, otherwise I don't think it would have worked out between us. There should be nothing else in the cup (insert hand-on-hips emoji here).

As we roam the world, we seek out a long black, or close enough, for our 10am-ish one-off for the day coffee. I got a Starbucks to provide a double shot, with the same amount of hot water, and it came close. But as Australian Baristas seem to spreading across the world at an ever increasing rate of knots, it's less of a worry.

 

[justinbrett]

Interesting reading through the comments. MrsK (who is a self declared coffee snob) would agree it is akin to a religious experience. Thankfully for me, I only drink long blacks, and so does she, otherwise I don't think it would have worked out between us. There should be nothing else in the cup (insert hand-on-hips emoji here).

As we roam the world, we seek out a long black, or close enough, for our 10am-ish one-off for the day coffee. I got a Starbucks to provide a double shot, with the same amount of hot water, and it came close. But as Australian Baristas seem to spreading across the world at an ever increasing rate of knots, it's less of a worry.

That reminds me of one time my friend an I were refused a cafe latte in Rome at 2pm. Espresso or Americano only.

We settled on negronis.

 

[offshore171]

That reminds me of one time my friend an I were refused a cafe latte in Rome at 2pm. Espresso or Americano only.

Surprisingly strong cultural taboo this one.

In Italy, milk based coffees are considered a morning thing only. Unthinkable after 11am.

 

[Mattg]

FWIW, I love it when airlines serve traditional local coffee in their lounges. This even includes Qantas serving “magic” in its MEL lounges - a treat for me as someone who doesn’t live there.

The Ethiopian Airlines lounge in ADD has a coffee ceremony. And I was delighted to be served this proper Turkish coffee in the TK IST lounge last week: