Qantas frequent flyers unleash over ‘almost worthless points’ in submissions to Senate

[offshore171]

https://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/aviation/qantas-frequent-flyers-unleash-over-almost-worthless-points-in-submissions-to-senate/news-story/d4893556b17d205034eaaaf8866f91db

Excerpts:

Public submissions to the Senate inquiry into bilateral air rights have revealed widespread fury about the Qantas frequent flyer program

“Utterly useless”, “a complete gouge”, “junk points” and “a big scam” were among the terms used to describe the frequent flyer scheme which turned a $451m profit in the 2023 financial year.

 

[Lynda2475]

What has the FFP got to do with bilateral agreements? Whether Australia has bilateral agreements with other nations for airport access has zero relationship to Qantas' nor any other airlines FF scheme.

If it is anything like the letters to the SMH travel section, I'm betting most of the complaints are from people who are looking at "anytime" rather than "classic" awards and not understanding the difference (and the masthead too uneducated themselves to correct the inaccurate claims re award seat cost).

Are these same people complaining about Flybuys or some of the actual junk health insurance being sold?

Do they think earning some points at Woolworths when they dont fly means QF owes them something? Earning points is NOT a guarantee, its an opportunity. You can choose to play the game or not. I bet they never even read the T&Cs when they joined.

Classic awards can be difficult to get but I dispute that QFF points are junk, I've done 2 * J 318K OWAs in the last 2 years, if id purchased those flights Id have needed to fund an extra $11-12k on top of the taxes paid on the award flights for each one. If one is after domestic awards to/from the capital cities these are plentiful. International and regional flights are harder to find, but certainly not impossible.

 

[Hunter4vr]

I'd agree that Qantas points are harder to spend than others, especially for flights out of Australia but I wouldn't call them worthless.

In the past year we redeemed over 1m points which definitely took some effort and flexibility on our part. I assume most of these complaints are from people who either do not put the time in to find reward flights and / or are expecting there to be plenty of availability for in demand routes.

 

[maia200]

I reckon they really do not understand the programme - have points - can fly.....and then find out not that simple unfortunately.

 

[Happy Dude]

What has the FFP got to do with bilateral agreements? Whether Australia has bilateral agreements with other nations for airport access has zero relationship to Qantas' nor any other airlines FF scheme.

Such agreements may actually provide an additional avenue for use of those FFPs. More fish in the sea, so to speak?

 

[MEL_Traveller]

What has the FFP got to do with bilateral agreements? Whether Australia has bilateral agreements with other nations for airport access has zero relationship to Qantas' nor any other airlines FF scheme.

If it is anything like the letters to the SMH travel section, I'm betting most of the complaints are from people who are looking at "anytime" rather than "classic" awards and not understanding the difference (and the masthead too uneducated themselves to correct the inaccurate claims re award seat cost).

Are these same people complaining about Flybuys or some of the actual junk health insurance being sold?

Do they think earning some points at Woolworths when they dont fly means QF owes them something? Earning points is NOT a guarantee, its an opportunity. You can choose to play the game or not. I bet they never even read the T&Cs when they joined.

Classic awards can be difficult to get but I dispute that QFF points are junk, I've done 2 * J 318K OWAs in the last 2 years, if id purchased those flights Id have needed to fund an extra $11-12k on top of the taxes paid on the award flights for each one. If one is after domestic awards to/from the capital cities these are plentiful. International and regional flights are harder to find, but certainly not impossible.

Sure, looking at anytime seats rather than classic awards… but if think QF is the only airline to default to anytime seats rather than show classics? Why not make the default the other way around?

The issue then wouldn’t be the price, but the availability. But it would take away the main argument.

 

[OATEK]

QF points are useful if you have status, much less so if you do not. Being able to use points to position to Asia (eg SIN) and then book revenue fares to EU/UK has saved us about $6K for our upcoming trip. By having 1 leg opened up as WP (the other was a classic reward) and we even used points for the Crowne Plaza at the airport to put some space between the reward and revenue flights.

 

[Lynda2475]

Such agreements may actually provide an additional avenue for use of those FFPs. More fish in the sea, so to speak?

But again that has zero bearing on how individuals or Qantas value their FF points or the program itself.

QR already famously withhold J award seats from QFF that they do make available to the FF programs of other OW carrirers such as BA or AA or AY. So even with more flights doesn't mean they will suddenly decide to release any to QFF because the EK agreement isnt going away.

Their argument is about lowering paid fairs (also dubious as QR are generally already more expensive than the Asian carriers to EU); QFF points are not a currency therefore irrelevant to whether a bilateral agreement should or shouldnt be put in place nor whether without one QR should get more slots.

but if think QF is the only airline to default to anytime seats rather than show classics

IME it shows anytime awards when there are no Qantas classic award flights on QF metal available on the date. However there is a classic reward filter button on the search result screen, which will show any QF or part CRs. If people are too dumb to click it well is there any hope for those lazy types.

From my experience most AA awards are now dynamically priced so basically default to the equivalent of an anytime reward. SO possibly other US carriers too?

If they are going to have a go at FF schemes, best haul Virgin and Flybys and credit card points programs in too. All have challenges to get awards on the date you want. But then again none should be of any consequence to airport slot access.

 

[Happy Dude]

But again that has zero bearing on how individuals or Qantas value their FF points or the program itself.

QR already famously withhold J award seats from QFF that they do make available to the FF programs of other OW carrirers such as BA or AA or AY. So even with more flights doesn't mean they will suddenly decide to release any to QFF because the EK agreement isnt going away.

Their argument is about lowering paid fairs (also dubious as QR are generally already more expensive than the Asian carriers to EU); QFF points are not a currency therefore irrelevant to whether a bilateral agreement should or shouldnt be put in place nor whether without one QR should get more slots.

As a QF Red, I'm someone who collects QFF points specifically to use on partner airlines. The number of flights by those airlines directly impacts my ability to use QFF points. Therefore discussion regarding QFF points and their perceived usefulness is very relevant to the inquiry, particularly when QF lobby the government to keep out other airlines.

If QFF points are not a currency, why do you place a dollar value on your redemptions? It's clear that they are, as also evidenced by some reactions of being scammed and the like.

In fact, it's so much like a currency actually further demonstrates their relevance to the inquiry as they make so much money for QF that they'll do whatever, including lobbying the government, to preserve their patch.

 

[Lynda2475]

The number of flights by those airlines directly impacts my ability to use QFF points.

Again only if said partner decides to release them to QFFers; QR already routinely choose not to do this (because they don't like QFs deal with EK); and it has nothing to do with the number of flights as they do make seats available on their Aus flights to AA and BA frequent flyer members.

EK are not using all their available slots, and you can redeem your points on EK flights relatively easily, if flying via the middle east is your want.

WRT to the other key OW airlines there is currently anything stopping those that fly to Aus from running extra services if they saw value in doing so.

If you are talking about redemptions for flight not starting/ending in Aus, then again Aus airport access has zero effect on those.

If QFF points are not a currency, why do you place a dollar value on your redemptions? It's clear that they are, as also evidenced by some reactions of being scammed and the like.

The tax office disagrees with you - if they were a currency they would be taxed. Also not a currency because they have no published exchange rate or guaranteed value, are not universally accepted in the country of issue.

You can attribute a $ value only when redeemed by comparing the equivalent cash fare on the day, but truth is most people wouldn't take those premium class flights if they didn't get an award seat. Whilst the points sit in your account they actually have no actual value only potential value which changes all the time.

And before you talk about the cost to acquire points, most people do not buy points. I earn all of my points on flights I would take anyway or money I would spend (groceries, clothing, entertainment) anyway. So for me its a zero cost to acquire.

Given you dont hold status and dont want to fly with QF seems strange that is the program you would choose. Surely earning Amex or other credit card points which can be transferred to other airlines that you fly would suit you better?

 

[levelnine]

you can redeem your points on EK flights relatively easily,

LOL

The tax office disagrees with you - if they were a currency they would be taxed.

Wrong. They are not taxed because they are not assessable income. It has nothing to do with whether or not they amount to currency. Indeed, they can be taxed when it is part of an income earning activity and certain criteria are met.

Also not a currency because they have no published exchange rate or guaranteed value, are not universally accepted in the country of issue.

Currency do not have a guaranteed value. They do have a fixed exchange rate: $1AUD = 0.006QFF. That is what you can exchange a QFF point for with any Qantas flight. They are accepted by the currency issuer: Qantas.

 

[Pushka]

I’m in two minds. For next year I’ve been able to get the family of four to Fiji, us to Bali and multiple J flights on BA. It’s just Qantas that’s impossible. And Qatar.

 

[Lynda2475]

Indeed, they can be taxed when it is part of an income earning activity and certain criteria are met.

But for average member they arent considered income by the ATO because they dont have any value until used. And most people arent using the CR seats to earn an income, most are taking a holiday or buying a toaster.

Currency do not have a guaranteed value.

I said a published exchange rate (like any official monetary currency has, never said it couldnt fluctuate) OR a guaranteed value. You ignored the OR, either way QFF points have neither IME.

They do have a fixed exchange rate: $1AUD = 0.006QFF.

Not sure where you are getting this number from? It does not match any classic redemptions I can see.

And it incorrectly implies the redemption rate is static which it is not because the equivalent cash fares (therefore value) changes depending on fare class, sales, time until departure etc.

For example, lets look at QF554 from SYD-BNE on Thursday this week:

In J its is $963 one way cash fare or 18,400 points + $51 taxes/fees. So the value if one were to redeem on that flight is 18,400/912 so $1 = 20 points.

In whY the same flight is $155 cash vs 8000points +$51, making redemption rate 8000/104 = 76 points per $1.

The redemption rate for a toaster will be different again, as would a partner award on BA.

 

[RooFlyer]

Sure, looking at anytime seats rather than classic awards… but if think QF is the only airline to default to anytime seats rather than show classics? Why not make the default the other way around?

Exactly! Clearly a number of the submissions were confusing points+pay cost Vs classic rewards cost. But WHY does Qantas have the much-more-expensive points+pay as the default? Can anyone come up with a better reason that Qantas knows some will simply accept the cost they see and blow a huge amount of points largely un-necessarily? I'd really like to hear of other plausible reasons.

And I'm bemused that QR is getting such a big run here . Obviously they are doing something right.

I honestly think if rusted-on Qantas loyalists tried some airlines beyond the old legacy OW carriers such as BA, AA, QF and their old, horrible base airports, they would have a real 'road to Damascus' experience and realise that there is so much better quality (and often cheaper, either cash or points/miles) out there. That happened to me about 8 years ago and I've never looked back. I collect points in 6 currencies: Avios (4 airlines!), QFF, Velocity, Alaskan, Krisflyer and Aeroplan, giving me access to redemptions across two alliances and a vast raft of non-alliance airlines; huge flexibility. Putting all your eggs/points in the Qantas basket is just loopy IMHO.

 

[Happy Dude]

Again only if said partner decides to release them to QFFers; QR already routinely choose not to do this (because they don't like QFs deal with EK); and it has nothing to do with the number of flights as they do make seats available on their Aus flights to AA and BA frequent flyer members.

EK are not using all their available slots, and you can redeem your points on EK flights relatively easily, if flying via the middle east is your want.

WRT to the other key OW airlines there is currently anything stopping those that fly to Aus from running extra services if they saw value in doing so.

If you are talking about redemptions for flight not starting/ending in Aus, then again Aus airport access has zero effect on those.



The tax office disagrees with you - if they were a currency they would be taxed. Also not a currency because they have no published exchange rate or guaranteed value, are not universally accepted in the country of issue.

You can attribute a $ value only when redeemed by comparing the equivalent cash fare on the day, but truth is most people wouldn't take those premium class flights if they didn't get an award seat. Whilst the points sit in your account they actually have no actual value only potential value which changes all the time.

And before you talk about the cost to acquire points, most people do not buy points. I earn all of my points on flights I would take anyway or money I would spend (groceries, clothing, entertainment) anyway. So for me its a zero cost to acquire.

Given you dont hold status and dont want to fly with QF seems strange that is the program you would choose. Surely earning Amex or other credit card points which can be transferred to other airlines that you fly would suit you better?

I'm no accountant but I thought there were instances where FFPs can trigger FBT, maybe for corporate accounts? I'd suggest that the ATO would love to tax FFPs at the individual level if they could. There are lots of instances where I "earn" real money or something close enough to currency, quite often using tips/info from these pages, that the ATO doesn't tax, eg 10% off GCs. We're all playing the game. There is a going rate on Ozbargain too, direct exchange points for cash, but of course it's not going to be anything official as you're suggesting there needs to be for it to be considered a currency. Why else would points feature in divorce settlements, or be withheld from some government employees, if they didn't have value like a currency does?

As I've said, FFPs have a value and that is one of the reasons why QF don't want more QR flights. Whether more flights would translate into more rewards and/or cheaper fares is perhaps speculation at this point, but it seems a reasonable conclusion it would. Many have come to that conclusion too, hence it's a part of the inquiry.

But you also seem to be suggesting that QF had no reason to lobby the government? If there's no threat to QF, or more specifically it's bottom line, because EK is not using all slots and all the other things you've mentioned, then there wouldn't have been a need for them to lobby the government.

WRT the bolded bit, it's not as though I don't want those things, I'm just realistic and knowledgeable enough to know that one isn't going to happen without the other. Unlike the letter writers as you pointed out earlier. Luckily I've learned enough here to put eggs in other baskets in line with your suggestions.

 

[encryptededdy]

In general I've found that Qantas availability is a bit worse than other FFPs around here, especially after covid, but I wouldn't say they're worthless. I've made a few Platinum seat requests in my time but most of my premium class bookings over the last 2 years have been seats available to anyone.

To be fair, I primarily travel between Australia and Asia, and for this I find QFF quite strong, especially with China Airlines as a redemption partner releasing quite a large number of business class seats (although this is gotten worse recently as people have been allowed to redeem flights onwards to europe etc. - I only use them for trips to Taiwan or self connect onto Japan/HK)

I collect points in 6 currencies: Avios (4 airlines!), QFF, Velocity, Alaskan, Krisflyer and Aeroplan, giving me access to redemptions across two alliances and a vast raft of non-alliance airlines; huge flexibility. Putting all your eggs/points in the Qantas basket is just loopy IMHO.

I think this depends on how you collect points. I assume you buy points on Aeroplan and Alaska, and transfer from Credit cards for the other 4. In practice I find that the yield I get from Credit Cards (both for spend and sign-up bonuses) is lower for other programs compared to QFF or Velocity.

I'm not sure how many points you earn a year, but I think for many people collecting points in 6 currencies isn't actually a viable strategy, since it means that they'll never have enough points in any one currency to redeem a premium cabin trip.

I definitely agree with you that for travel to Europe, Avios, Krisflyer, and to a lesser extent Velocity have better availability than QFF, and people should collect those currencies if Europe is the goal. In my opinion, for Asia, QFF is probably still better (taking into account the higher earn from cards).

I've recently started collecting Krisflyer too, but the recent devaluations from most card issuers for KF transfers really threw a spanner in the works.

 

[Lynda2475]

But WHY does Qantas have the much-more-expensive points+pay as the default?

Except it actually doesn't always do this but that doesn't suit your anti QF narrative. You only see the anytime points only where there are no CR awards on that date.

I just did this search



and look what comes up at the top of the list



but if i search a date with no CR availability then of course am only offered anytime awards. As stated previously easy to filter those out with another a button click, and then browse for availability.

Not a great interface but not the deliberate hiding of available CRs you are implying.

Putting all your eggs/points in the Qantas basket is just loopy IMHO.

I dont think anyone here only has points in one program, that is a weird assumption to make on a FF site. But the reason I would not fly some of the airlines you choose or go to their home bases has zero to do with FF alliance. I personally have flown many non OW airlines outside of capital cities serviced by the core OW partners.

That said for those of us in full time work with limited time to do self funded travel each year, spreading your travel across too many programs leaves you without enough points in any of them to redeem anything useful.

Velocity does not have partners that cover as many destinations as OW, I collect Virgin points where offered but certainly dont go out of my way, as their schedule is limited outside of the capital cities. And IMO if you need to buy points, then just buy a ticket because you arent playing the game correctly.

When Ansett was still around they were my primary FFP and because they were a full member of Star Alliance and had many ways to earn points on top of fly Star Alliance it made sense. But I still also had QFF and a credit cards rewards program.

Rex can only earn points by flying Rex no airline earn or retail partners, so not viable unless you fly regionally very very regularly.

 

[RooFlyer]

I think this depends on how you collect points. I assume you buy points on Aeroplan and Alaska, and transfer from Credit cards for the other 4. In practice I find that the yield I get from Credit Cards (both for spend and sign-up bonuses) is lower for other programs compared to QFF or Velocity.

I'm not sure how many points you earn a year, but I think for many people collecting points in 6 currencies isn't actually a viable strategy, since it means that they'll never have enough points in any one currency to redeem a premium cabin trip.

Yes, I buy Aeroplan and Alaskan (high bonuses only!); I have earned Krisflyer and most Avios# by flying; QFF and Velocity by mix of CC and flying. Transferred some Velocity to Krisflyer.

But yes, 6 schemes is a bit of a stretch. Krisflyer and Avios were a long time collecting but I've done quite a bit of J and F long haul recently crediting to Krisflyer, so that's kept current. Avios may have done their dash after my recent trip and I wouldn't buy any more Alaskan given the FX.

I'll spend any QFF points I earn on domestic upgrades - never for international (life's too short for that!!) and keep my balance about 10K


# Does anyone here remember Vente Privee sales for buying Avios?

 

[RichardMEL]

I don't know what they're all complaining about! I have enough points for around 82 toasters!! It's great! So great.....

but seriously, I agree with the issues raised above - half the time I hear people whine about QFF in the media and clearly are confused, and have no idea about the difference between CR's and points+pay or whatever you want to call it - and that's on QF. It's like every time I hear the media report "points redemptions have gone up 10x in recent years!" (or whatever) I immediately know they're confusing things - specially when they go to quote ridiculous numbers.

Again though that's on QF because it's a CLEAR UI design choice - just like the choices to "simplify" things by removing booking class info from booking screens etc. It's definitely deliberate and you'd have to think this is the sort of thing fair trading or ACCC should possibly be going at them for because it's so misleading.

Now WE know how to find (what few may be there) actual CR seats, but it's not totally straightforward or intuitive to punters - and it should be.

When I go to say another airline like AA, UA etc or a hotel chain like IHG, Hilton etc - it's VERY obvious and the defaults make sense (now some programs like AA going dynamic award pricing make this a bit more difficult, but it's still in my view fairly clear).

I really dislike the design choices made by QF to make this as difficult as possible while still probably being able to spin their way around it ("When customer selects "use points" they are presented with point based values for fares, which can, but do not always, includr CR seats. The customer then has to specify to filter by classic reward seats only to display these" - and while that's technically true, and probably gets them off the hook to a certain degree - the "pub test" as it were i a fail in my book.


And yes, status gets the perks as it should definitely - certainly I have a much easier time to get CR's as P1 then a Silver or Bronze so for ME the program has more value in that respect. For Joe average though - the vast majority of the 12m or however many QFF members there are - that's simply not the case. Not to mention most people don't think a year out to try to find those seats or plan for them like AFF members do - but they might think "Yeah, I want to take the kids to Bali or Gold Coast in January" and then cry foul when there's nothing there. We all know why.. but again to the punter it seems like the whole system is poor and offers no value - and to those customers that's true - it doesn't. That doesn't mean it's totally a rort or points are useless... they can always buy toasters.....

 

[LondonAussie]

What has the FFP got to do with bilateral agreements? Whether Australia has bilateral agreements with other nations for airport access has zero relationship to Qantas' nor any other airlines FF scheme.

I was watching part of the Senate inquiry where one of the politician's was asking the new CEO to explain why Qantas points expire and if she thought it was unreasonable to have points expire. Not sure that's the best use of their time, on either side. It's also not unique to Qantas or airlines.

She answered it pretty poorly though, just saying it was part of their T&C's that members agreed to.