Qantas frequent flyers unleash over ‘almost worthless points’ in submissions to Senate

[Lynda2475]

FFPs have a value and that is one of the reasons why QF don't want more QR flights

I do not think FFPs factored into QFs objection at all; QF FFP profits come from selling them to the banks, supermarkets and other retail partners. When redeemed they also profit by adding fees over and above the official airport taxes.

The difficulty of being able to redeem the points, does not seem to be impacting peoples willingness to earn them at any material level.

QR redemptions given the miniscule number of flights they actually release to QFFlyers at the last minute would not even be a blip on the QF balance sheet.

QF likely object to all requests for access. We know that Rex certainly complain every time QF adds a new or increases frequency on routes they operate on. I sure Virgin lobby when QF request new routes subject to government approval. Its BAU for airlines.

But you also seem to be suggesting that QF had no reason to lobby the government

QF were within their right to lobby, anyone can submit an objection and it was mentioned objections did not just come from QF, we know the lawyer for the victims of the assault at Doha also lobbied the government and possibly others.

I dont know or care what QFs full reasons were but instead of looking for a conspiracy re FFPs the more obvious practice of objecting to any increase in competition is far more likely. Id like to think they were also showing support for the victims of the assaults committed by staff of QR owned companies.

Ultimately QFs reasons dont matter because the decision was actually made by the government who did not have to side with QFs or the other lobbyists requests.

All large companies lobby the government when they want something, it is naive to think otherwise. The reasoning for the final ruling however lies entirely with the people who have the power to make it - the government.

I maintain complaints about the value of QFF is irrelevant to the proceedings. There has not been any recent devaluation of redemption rates. CRs rates are the same as they were before Covid - where were the complaints in 2019?? Just people piling on with unrelated grips they were too lazy to raise previously.

 

[clifford]

Well, today I tried to find a (sensible) use for some of my Qantas points, to get to SIN at the end of November.

Business or Economy, I gave up (I'm not paying $1240 "tax" for Emirates) . I'm buying a Scoot Plus fare instead for $550..

I get the feeling (from trying to find legitimate redemptions) that Qantas is being even more tricky than previously, and the new CEO will be more Joyce than the original. What else does she know?

 

[Lynda2475]

I was watching part of the Senate inquiry where one of the politician's was asking the new CEO to explain why Qantas points expire and if she thought it was unreasonable to have points expire. Not sure that's the best use of their time, on either side. It's also not unique to Qantas or airlines.

She answered it pretty poorly though, just saying it was part of their T&C's that members agreed to.

Yes i have been to many a senate estimates committee hearing and senate enquiry in a previous job; the pollies are very good at failing to properly research or fact check before asking questions that just make them look silly.

QFs points expiry policy is far more generous than some others. QF you need only earn or spend 1 point every couple of years to stop them expiring, very easy to do if you ever buy anything at Woolworths or any other online store via the QFF site. Krisflyer points otoh have a hard expiry date irrespective of whether you give them more business.

One of the most ridiculous Senate Estimates questions I every heard, was when the ABC chair was discussing their budget and a certain male politician gets up to ask why his favourite show had been cancelled and was no longer on the ABC (but that show was not even Australian nor ABC produced).

Later that hearing same guy wanted to know why nbn provided satellite internet and could not just run fibre (FTTP) to an outback cattle station over 600kms from nearest town. The station was not on the electricity grid, never had a landline. Again just silly question.

Post automatically merged: Oct 3, 2023

I'm not paying $1240 "tax" for Emirates

Excuse my ignorance because I dont fly ME airlines; but aren't EK taxes/fees equally high on other partners (and possibly even their own program)?

 

[RichardMEL]

Yes, EK hate everyone with their over the top surcharges that's true.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

IME it shows anytime awards when there are no Qantas classic award flights on QF metal available on the date. However there is a classic reward filter button on the search result screen, which will show any QF or part CRs. If people are too dumb to click it well is there any hope for those lazy types.

From my experience most AA awards are now dynamically priced so basically default to the equivalent of an anytime reward. SO possibly other US carriers too?

If they are going to have a go at FF schemes, best haul Virgin and Flybys and credit card points programs in too. All have challenges to get awards on the date you want. But then again none should be of any consequence to airport slot access.

Yes, but why not default to a calendar view where you can see all available classic rewards? That way, you might be able to change your travel plans to fit around availability? AA offers a calendar view to find lowest price awards… very simply.

I think ‘dumb’ is a bit harsh. It is people being presented with information in a certain way by the airline. And people acting - or not - on that.

 

[RooFlyer]

Except it actually doesn't always do this but that doesn't suit your anti QF narrative. You only see the anytime points only where there are no CR awards on that date.

I just did this search

Right! And just how many CR seats have there been lately, outside of the 'we are sorry' releases. Business class. That's right. Bugger-all. So a typical search by your explanation WILL return the expensive points+pay. But WHY do they make you click the 'reward seats' filter to see cheaper reward seats Vs points+pay.


This was the search. I'm just a punter looking for a 'cheap' points flight using my points to LAX.


This is what comes up, cheapest on the day and the first 2 flights.



BUT if I think click the 'reward seats' filter, I get this. Voila!! There ARE more cheap points seats on those flights that the default search showed. All I did was click the 'reward seats' filter. Nothing else. The default search hid the cheaper options amongst a bunch of expensive ones.




This is what we are talking about. Not that there may be CR seats (there won't be J seats ...) , but why the default search shows the expensive points+pay seats first. This is obviously what is tripping people up. The question is WHY does Qantas make you do a two stage search to get the CR seats clearly, rather than have them come up as the default. Why wouldn't they have the second screen, above, first?

Still happy to hear any logical reason for this arrangement, other than Qantas is deliberately trying to get people spend more points than they need to.

People are welcome to cling to Qantas' CR offerings, rare as they are, and with the distinctive Qantas standards and Neil Perry leaves. I have been self-funded flying for the past 5 years and I KNOW there are much better and much more economical, in terms of points and $$, options out there. You can earn Krisflyer with an Aussie credit card. The ability to swap between KF and Velocity is fantastic (at some cost, but you can do it if you want). Avios - wonderful - choice of 4 airlines, all in OW! Anyone can earn them flying Qantas if they want.

Honestly, earning QFF points with the ambition of flying international - certainly in J or F - is a mugs game. People may be happy paying and being mugs, but judging by the Senate enquiry, Qantas have managed to pi** off even more customers.

Oh, and Emirates? Sure ... go ahead and pay thousands.

Full List of Emirates Carrier Charges

Following successive price increases in 2022, Emirates' fuel surcharges (sometimes referred to as "carrier charges") are now among the highest of any

www.australianfrequentflyer.com.au

 

[levelnine]

But for average member they arent considered income by the ATO because they dont have any value until used. And most people arent using the CR seats to earn an income, most are taking a holiday or buying a toaster.

That is not the reason they are not considered income by the ATO. A key reason they are not considered income is, in fact, the limits imposed on the transferability of Qantas points. Indeed, they might be considered income if Qantas allowed you to transfer the points to anyone else: see Payne v Federal Commissioner of Taxation (1996) 66 FCR 299. You do not understand taxation law.

I said a published exchange rate (like any official monetary currency has, never said it couldnt fluctuate) OR a guaranteed value. You ignored the OR, either way QFF points have neither IME.

There is a guaranteed value. See below.

Not sure where you are getting this number from? It does not match any classic redemptions I can see.

This number is the Points plus Pay exchange rate — the floor value. You can exchange QFF points for dollars at that rate for any Qantas flight. Classic rewards provide higher than the floor value (think of them like sale fares, but in the QFF points currency rather than Australian dollar currency).

 

[Pushka]

Except it actually doesn't always do this but that doesn't suit your anti QF narrative. You only see the anytime points only where there are no CR awards on that date.

I just did this search

View attachment 347849

and look what comes up at the top of the list

View attachment 347850

but if i search a date with no CR availability then of course am only offered anytime awards. As stated previously easy to filter those out with another a button click, and then browse for availability.

Not a great interface but not the deliberate hiding of available CRs you are implying.



I dont think anyone here only has points in one program, that is a weird assumption to make on a FF site. But the reason I would not fly some of the airlines you choose or go to their home bases has zero to do with FF alliance. I personally have flown many non OW airlines outside of capital cities serviced by the core OW partners.

That said for those of us in full time work with limited time to do self funded travel each year, spreading your travel across too many programs leaves you without enough points in any of them to redeem anything useful.

Velocity does not have partners that cover as many destinations as OW, I collect Virgin points where offered but certainly dont go out of my way, as their schedule is limited outside of the capital cities. And IMO if you need to buy points, then just buy a ticket because you arent playing the game correctly.

When Ansett was still around they were my primary FFP and because they were a full member of Star Alliance and had many ways to earn points on top of fly Star Alliance it made sense. But I still also had QFF and a credit cards rewards program.

Rex can only earn points by flying Rex no airline earn or retail partners, so not viable unless you fly regionally very very regularly.

If people are not used to how QFF works, they search to do a points booking. And up springs the multi million points required to fly to Melbourne.
People seem to forget that AFF and others know the system, the average Joe Blow simply doesn't.

 

[jb747]

Points are basically a Ponzi scheme. Some manage to make them work, but I suspect most end up as toasters.

 

[offshore171]

Points are basically a Ponzi scheme. Some manage to make them work, but I suspect most end up as toasters.

I think this is not too far off the mark.

Legitimate premium classic reward redemptions are bloody difficult unless you're a solo traveller, with high status, booking well outside any busy period such as school holidays.

And what is available is deceptively hidden from the average punter because of the way their site drives them to the PPP option, making most customers think that's the "normal" reward seat.

 

[Lynda2475]

they search to do a points booking

Which is exactly what I did in the example above, you can see in screen shot that the extra click to filter rewards was not made that butoon is not selected, because classic awards came straight up because they were available.

Those saying that anytime rewards are always defaulted whilst classic rewards are hidden when doing the basic search are wrong.

Post automatically merged: Oct 4, 2023

booking well outside any busy period such as school holidays.

And yet all my premium redemptions have been in peak.

 

[Lynda2475]

This number is the Points plus Pay exchange rate — the floor value

So one possible value, not the value, very simple to get much more even buying a toaster.

As I stated earlier it is not universally acceptable in country of issue like the AUD, it is only accepted by QF, making it non transferable except between family members and there are limits on that.

FFP have a variable value, could be zero tomorrow but are not a true currency and anyone wanting them to be is deluded.

I can't see that QF have violated the published terms of the QFF program, it never promissed that classic awards would be available on the flight that you want in the quantity you want everytime you want them.

Sure we would all like more CR seats and a better search facility, but making it easier won't necessarily mean your individual luck improves in the FF gambling game just maybe that a pleb gets a seat ahead of an actual loyal FF.

Again none of this has any relevance to bilateral agreements and airport slots.

If you want an inquiry into fairness or value of award schemes and loyalty programs it needs to cover all those operating in Australia. Flybuys have pathetic travel redemption rates, and the self serve cash register tries to trick you into using points for $10 off a shop even if your total is under $10. Virgin CR premium availability isn't on demand either.

 

[Pushka]

Which is exactly what I did in the example above, you can see in screen shot that the extra click to filter rewards was not made that butoon is not selected, because classic awards came straight up because they were available.

Those saying that anytime rewards are always defaulted whilst classic rewards are hidden when doing the basic search are wrong.

Post automatically merged: Oct 4, 2023

And yet all my premium redemptions have been in peak.

Qantas simply does not make it easy to use points effectively. Even many here struggle to get the multi city function to work which is the only way to properly search for award flights. Do a simple search from A to B and return and likely that search will not yield anything. Do a search using multi city, assuming you know say that KL is an option, amd award seats show up. Why the heck dont they always show on a simple search? ALMOST Every flight from Australia to anything non Asia or ME requires a stop. And including Pacific Islands in the Asia classification.

Then there's the calendar. Seats show up. You click on that date and there's no seats.

The system is designed to make it as difficult as possible to use points for flights to those places most want to use points for.

[Edited to take into account a couple of exceptions. ]

 

[levelnine]

So one possible value, not the value, very simple to get much more even buying a toaster.

Which is analogous to other currencies — what you can get with it depends on what you want to exchange it for.

 

[Lynda2475]

Every flight from Australia to anything non Asia or ME requires a stop

Except for fact that you can fly non stop from Australia to the America's (Canada, USA, Chile) and South Africa (neither in Asia or ME), the Pacific Islands and even LHR and FCO.

 

[Pushka]

Nope, you can fly non stop to the America's and South Africa (neither in Asia or ME) and of course the Pacific Islands. And even LHR.

Yeah I knew you'd come up with the one or two exceptions. Let me amend to Almost every. And the Pacific Islands I'd assume it would be included in the Asia classification.

 

[Mr H]

These are my redemptions using QF points between July 2022 and February 2024 (i.e. 20 months), all in business class. The points are far from worthless, but do require some effort and some flexibility. I hope we are not all going to suffer because Ma and Pa Kettle can't get their family of six onto flights to America during the school holidays.

 

[Lynda2475]

Yeah I knew you'd come up with the one or two exceptions

A few more than one or two. QF alone has more than that per day from SYD alone.

But the non stop flights also operate out of MEL, BNE, PER (even one from CBR) also on Hawaiian, Fiji Airways, AA, United, Delta, Air NZ.

And the Pacific Islands I'd assume it would be included in the Asia classification.

Fiji, New Caledonia, Vanuatu, Cook Islands, Solomon Islands, Tonga are not in Asia. Australia is also not part of Asia it is its own continent. Of course some of Asia joins the Pacific in Oceania, or you can say Asia Pacific, but you didn't.

 

[Pushka]

Fiji, New Caledonia, Cook Islands, NZ are not in Asia.

For gods sake give it a break. It's actually quite irrelevant to this discussion. Alright then, flights from Australia that take less than 8 hours. Are we done now?

 

[Must...Fly!]

Here's the problem.

Qantas Frequent Flyer.

Emphasis on Frequent Flyer.

However, airline loyalty programs have evolved to be so much more, and the marketing reflects that.

So can you blame punters for thinking their points are worthless, even though they're most definitely not frequent flyers themselves? Qantas does kind of set the expectation, even though the name should say it all. If you are WP it is much easier to burn points, I wish I had the opportunity to request seats be released...

But regardless sometimes you can make good use of them. EG I just redeemed 36,000 points + $119 for MEL-LEA-MEL in a couple weeks. Cash price $1090. So call it $1000 of value for 36,000 points, or 2.7c/pt. Beats a toaster.