A discussion on the ethics and legality of scripting 1 cent transactions!

[JohnK]

Re: Bankwest Transaction account [General Discussion]

Yes you appear to be.

I clearly stated I have ONE account

So how many avtive cards on that ONE account? And do you alternate repetitive payments daily on those cards to maximise points earn?

If that's what you are doing then I would say there is something wrong. Otherwise I apogise if I am mistaken.

By the way I am not criticising. Clearly there is a loophole that is being exploited. But most people here know that anyway. Just hope you get to keep all the points if the cough hits the fan.

 

[medhead]

Re: Bankwest Transaction account [General Discussion]

So how many avtive cards on that ONE account? And do you alternate repetitive payments daily on those cards to maximise points earn?

If that's what you are doing then I would say there is something wrong. Otherwise I apogise if I am mistaken.

By the way I am not criticising. Clearly there is a loophole that is being exploited. But most people here know that anyway. Just hope you get to keep all the points if the cough hits the fan.

Ignoring that the answers to your questions are in the post.

Are you seriously saying that there is something wrong with buying 50 apples in a day? or 50 coffees, or 50 bread rolls?

 

[JohnK]

Re: Bankwest Transaction account [General Discussion]

Ignoring that the answers to your questions are in the post.

Are you seriously saying that there is something wrong with buying 50 apples in a day? or 50 coffees, or 50 bread rolls?

That's not what I said. Don't twist words.

You buy a service for $50 and use multiple cards/accounts to make 50 × 1c payments daily on that service.

If anyone thinks that's reasonable then I am sorry for going totally off track.

 

[burmans]

Re: Bankwest Transaction account [General Discussion]

So how many avtive cards on that ONE account? And do you alternate repetitive payments daily on those cards to maximise points earn?

If that's what you are doing then I would say there is something wrong. Otherwise I apogise if I am mistaken.

By the way I am not criticising. Clearly there is a loophole that is being exploited. But most people here know that anyway. Just hope you get to keep all the points if the cough hits the fan.

While I don't doubt there are some who are engaging in misrepresentation to get multiple cards if a bank teller has told someone they can have two cards on an account, that they can use them multiple times a day and that's not actually the case then its pretty clear its not the customer engaging in misrepresentation.

On a side note, just looking at the T&C's on the website I note these have a date of 12 January and some conditions have indeed been changed. This kind of aligns with my view that they'd always need to change the T&C to restrict some of the more egregious behaviour but my question is as to whether anyone here has received that T&C update as I certainly haven't, Which is odd (to say the least) given they have a requirement under those very same T&C's to actually provide written notice of amendments to said T&C's.

 

[coles525]

Re: Bankwest Transaction account [General Discussion]

While I don't doubt there are some who are engaging in misrepresentation to get multiple cards if a bank teller has told someone they can have two cards on an account, that they can use them multiple times a day and that's not actually the case then its pretty clear its not the customer engaging in misrepresentation.

On a side note, just looking at the T&C's on the website I note these have a date of 12 January and some conditions have indeed been changed. This kind of aligns with my view that they'd always need to change the T&C to restrict some of the more egregious behaviour but my question is as to whether anyone here has received that T&C update as I certainly haven't, Which is odd (to say the least) given they have a requirement under those very same T&C's to actually provide written notice of amendments to said T&C's.

Are you able to paste the new (changed) rules here?

 

[burmans]

Re: Bankwest Transaction account [General Discussion]

http://www.bankwest.com.au/library/pdf/PDS_20120824-143838.pdf

I don't have the old on hand to refer to sorry. But what I think has changed is 4.3, parts of 7 (pretty sure the explicit right to reverse Qantas points is new and/or this section is substantially rewritten). Suspect they may have changed how they can notify, e.g. by a newspaper or website. Hard to tell what else has changed but am pretty sure last time I looked it was only 4 pages long and now its 6 so there may be other changes.

 

[Nutcase]

I'm not doing this thing, but I don't see anything wrong with it.
Would I do something like this to a mom & pop business? No way.
But remember banks have zero conscience and will push the limits of all kinds of rules and laws to get as much of our money (billions per quarter). Seriously, why should we feel bad about playing the game hard like they do?

So defrauding a Bank is OK but defrauding a small business isnt because fraud is about feeling. Got it.

http://www.bankwest.com.au/library/pdf/PDS_20120824-143838.pdf

I don't have the old on hand to refer to sorry. But what I think has changed is 4.3, parts of 7 (pretty sure the explicit right to reverse Qantas points is new and/or this section is substantially rewritten). Suspect they may have changed how they can notify, e.g. by a newspaper or website. Hard to tell what else has changed but am pretty sure last time I looked it was only 4 pages long and now its 6 so there may be other changes.

Thats interesting. I wonder why that came about and who did that?

The "reasonable person" defence means extremely little in Australian law as pertains to the financial sector, nutcase. Not that this situation has any chance of coming down to something like that.

You do like that "wholesale weighted average interchange" term, don't you? I'm more concerned about a "lawyer" who doesn't understand the concept of fraud and deception and misrepresentation.

Ad hominem. Really? Not good or very constructive.

A "reasonable man" will take whatever steps they can to fully utalise the terms of their agreement with a major bank (is CBA still the largest... Can't recall)

Just as bankwest used the fullest extent of their terms to ruin multiple lives during the GFC by calling in business loans in an immoral (however still within the bounds of the terms of the loan) ways.

It's give and take. In this instance, all these consumers are doing is acting within the bounds of the T&C of the product issued by one of if not the most profitable organisations in this country.

Unless you're the CEO of CBA (and I'd put a huge amount of money on you not being), try to use some perspective

So what you're saying is that because a Bank exercises its right to lend their money and then not lend their money as they see fit then its OK for someone to act deceptively and potentially in a fraudulent manner when it comes to dealing with them. Perhaps we have a different view of how commerce should be undertaken.

 

[coles525]

Re: Bankwest Transaction account [General Discussion]

I would need to check my folder/rule book that i was provided when account was opened...

 

[Kangol]

Re: Bankwest Transaction account [General Discussion]

I stepped away for a day to consider this thread and Im met with Smiley faces from you. I don't debate children.

The behaviour displayed by you is unfortunate, because the erroneous inference you made is that anyone who clicks on the laugh icon is a child. Your ad hominem is also an unfortunate indication of your character.

For another time, you have chosen not to explain why the topic of multiple transactions is deemed fraud, or why it is deceptive.
There has been evidence showing that it is not fraud and not deceptive, as per info from BW.

If anything, your activity can be considered fraudulent, because you have led us to believe that you know why such behaviour is considered fraud, when you have not posted any evidence supporting your cause. Deceptive and misleading behaviour should not be tolerated.

If anything, it would be misleading for anyone to believe that you could display rational, humane or sensible behaviour. Maybe you could disprove such an observation.

 

[Nutcase]

http://www.bankwest.com.au/library/pdf/PDS_20120824-143838.pdf

I don't have the old on hand to refer to sorry. But what I think has changed is 4.3, parts of 7 (pretty sure the explicit right to reverse Qantas points is new and/or this section is substantially rewritten). Suspect they may have changed how they can notify, e.g. by a newspaper or website. Hard to tell what else has changed but am pretty sure last time I looked it was only 4 pages long and now its 6 so there may be other changes.

Some highlights; (Apologies for the formatting)

QantasPoints are not accrued on:
transactions we decide are disputed due to being fraudulent or which involve an abuse of your Account or any Card

7. When you will not accrue Qantas Points and when we may cancel your Qantas Points ;
we reasonably decide that you are behaving fraudulently

The behaviour displayed by you is unfortunate, because the erroneous inference you made is that anyone who clicks on the laugh icon is a child. Your ad hominem is also an unfortunate indication of your character.

For another time, you have chosen not to explain why the topic of multiple transactions is deemed fraud, or why it is deceptive.
There has been evidence showing that it is not fraud and not deceptive, as per info from BW.

If anything, your activity can be considered fraudulent, because you have led us to believe that you know why such behaviour is considered fraud, when you have not posted any evidence supporting your cause. Deceptive and misleading behaviour should not be tolerated.

If anything, it would be misleading for anyone to believe that you could display rational, humane or sensible behaviour. Maybe you could disprove such an observation.

Youre out of line.

Perhaps you should take it up with the moderators?

 

[kevrosmith]

Re: Bankwest Transaction account [General Discussion]

I've got a copy of the T&Cs, version 2.0 1 March 2014, but can't see any easy way to upload it or link here, sorry. I'll see later if there's much materially changed.

 

[Nutcase]

Re: Bankwest Transaction account [General Discussion]

I've got a copy of the T&Cs, version 2.0 1 March 2014, but can't see any easy way to upload it or link here, sorry. I'll see later if there's much materially changed.

This is the document youre looking for

http://www.bankwest.com.au/library/pdf/PDS_20120824-143838.pdf

The relevant section is

QantasPoints are not accrued on:
transactions we decide are disputed due to being fraudulent or which involve an abuse of your Account or any Card

7. When you will not accrue Qantas Points and when we may cancel your Qantas Points ;
we reasonably decide that you are behaving fraudulently

 

[samh004]

Re: Bankwest Transaction account [General Discussion]

Perhaps you should take it up with the moderators?

As you well know, the moderators have been keeping a close eye on this thread since yesterday.

Often I find myself questioning whether I should post in a thread or not, and it comes down to if I have useful information to offer.

 

[Nutcase]

Re: Bankwest Transaction account [General Discussion]

As you well know, the moderators have been keeping a close eye on this thread since yesterday.

Often I find myself questioning whether I should post in a thread or not, and it comes down to if I have useful information to offer.

Abuse or fraud. Take your pick.

QantasPoints are not accrued on:
transactions we decide are disputed due to being fraudulent or which involve an abuse of your Account or any Card

Attacking me personally is not on.

 

[samh004]

Re: Bankwest Transaction account [General Discussion]

Attacking me personally is not on.

Neither is attacking others.

At this stage I'd recommend all users to debate the topic, not each other.

 

[medhead]

Re: Bankwest Transaction account [General Discussion]

That's not what I said. Don't twist words.

You buy a service for $50 and use multiple cards/accounts to make 50 × 1c payments daily on that service.

If anyone thinks that's reasonable then I am sorry for going totally off track.

That is precisely what you wrote. repetitive payments daily to maximise points. All of the examples I listed would be repetitive daily payments to maximise points. I'm not the one twisting words here.

So how many avtive cards on that ONE account? And do you alternate repetitive payments daily on those cards to maximise points earn?

If that's what you are doing then I would say there is something wrong. Otherwise I apogise if I am mistaken.

By the way I am not criticising. Clearly there is a loophole that is being exploited. But most people here know that anyway. Just hope you get to keep all the points if the cough hits the fan.

So what you're saying is that because a Bank exercises its right to lend their money and then not lend their money as they see fit then its OK for someone to act deceptively and potentially in a fraudulent manner when it comes to dealing with them. Perhaps we have a different view of how commerce should be undertaken.

HAHAHAHA Because the commonwealth bank has never falsified customer loan applications to get business.

Still that is a silly example since no one is saying the bank must be forced to do something. The fact remains in this case the bank are entirely responsible for the product that they've released. They designed it, they released it. The customer is not committing fraud by using the bank's product.

Some highlights; (Apologies for the formatting)

QantasPoints are not accrued on:
transactions we decide are disputed due to being fraudulent or which involve an abuse of your Account or any Card

7. When you will not accrue Qantas Points and when we may cancel your Qantas Points ;
we reasonably decide that you are behaving fraudulently

Nice quote of words. Problem is your interpretation is entirely unreasonable, meaning point 7 does not apply. Not reasonable to accuse the customer of fraud for simply using the product within the terms and conditions. That would knock that one on the head.

 

[Kangol]

Re: Bankwest Transaction account [General Discussion]

Some highlights; (Apologies for the formatting)

QantasPoints are not accrued on:
transactions we decide are disputed due to being fraudulent or which involve an abuse of your Account or any Card

7. When you will not accrue Qantas Points and when we may cancel your Qantas Points ;
we reasonably decide that you are behaving fraudulently


Youre out of line.

Perhaps you should take it up with the moderators?

I'm not out of line at all. There was no personal attack, it was directed at the (lack of) content in your posts and the behaviour that led to such information (if you can call it that). The word "if" does not constitute a statement of certainty.



Back to the topic (this is for everyone except Nutcase, who has not shown any ability to discuss the topic) - if BW decide that a user is behaving fraudulently, how would they determine that? ie. which party is commiting fraud and which party is being defrauded? Is it a relationship between the user and the merchant? Between the user and BW?

 

[TomVexille]

Re: Bankwest Transaction account [General Discussion]

Thats interesting. I wonder why that came about and who did that?

That's interesting. It couldn't possibly have been you could it??

 

[samh004]

Re: Bankwest Transaction account [General Discussion]

120,000 $0.01 transactions is very clearly abuse of the Account or card in fact 2000 repetitive transactions would be deemed to be abuse.

That volume of transactions would only ever be found in the Corporate or institutional end of the bank. Those accounts are not governed by the same laws as consumer accounts.

I will place this here again from the Bankwest documentation of 12 January for you to dispute, argue with and ridicule.

If you would like to click on the link and read the entire document it is here.

http://www.bankwest.com.au/library/pdf/PDS_20120824-143838.pdf

QantasPoints are not accrued on:
transactions we decide are disputed due to being fraudulent or which involve an abuse of your Account or any Card

At this stage I would imagine that re-posting the same information over and over isn't really what the topic needs. It certainly doesn't provide any new information for anyone to discuss, just a repeated viewpoint that isn't much more than that.

Perhaps the discussion can move on to new information.

 

[JohnK]

Re: Bankwest Transaction account [General Discussion]

That is precisely what you wrote. repetitive payments daily to maximise points. All of the examples I listed would be repetitive daily payments to maximise points. I'm not the one twisting words here.

You know that is not the same.

There is nothing with buying 50 apples in a day? or 50 coffees, or 50 bread rolls? But if you paid for each one of those purchases with 50 x 1c transactions then there is something wrong. You don't do that for fun do you? You don't do it to save money either?

Apologies we are going further off track here.