A level playing field?

[markis10]

But wasn't the rumour that running an half empty EK flight to NZ was cheaper than being at SYD parked overnight during curfew?
Maybe with the TT flights there costs are not totally related to capacity but avoiding other costs.

The aircraft would not be parked overnight in Sydney given it does a day trip across the ditch, parking at Sydney airport for an aircraft is $140 an hour. The real cost of the park for Emirates is the fact the aircraft is not in use, a situation that would happen anywhere in the world which is why they do so many tag flights.

 

[yohy?!]

the TT tag flights for EK are good for cargo too - something that the other carriers have limited capacity TT in all the narrowbodies.

just looked up my 1 and only EK flight from AKL-SYD in '09 . . . $160NZD

 

[smit0847]

I find these tag flights fascinating. There are so many in Asia - they’re usually very interesting airlines and products at very low prices – it would be a very interesting TR to see just how far you could get only taking tag/5[SUP]th[/SUP] freedom flights!

People seem to like arriving from DXB early morning and departing for DXB late night so EK is stuck with having A380s that are not needed for 12+ hours per day (much like QF and VA do at LAX). I thought the purpose of the EK A380 AKL flights were threefold:

1. Reduce the costs of parking an aircraft each day in expensive Australian airports;
2. Make some money transporting freight; and
3. Move AKL based pax to and from DXB.

I assume the above 3 factors result in some profit for EK, even flying them half-full rather than just having them sit there all day doing nothing. I agree QF (and NZ) have gone for frequency over prestige – leisure travellers would love to take an A380 on such a short flight – I think business pax would rather have frequency.

 

[marks]

I find these tag flights fascinating. There are so many in Asia - they’re usually very interesting airlines and products at very low prices – it would be a very interesting TR to see just how far you could get only taking tag/5[SUP]th[/SUP] freedom flights!

People seem to like arriving from DXB early morning and departing for DXB late night so EK is stuck with having A380s that are not needed for 12+ hours per day (much like QF and VA do at LAX). I thought the purpose of the EK A380 AKL flights were threefold:

1. Reduce the costs of parking an aircraft each day in expensive Australian airports;
2. Make some money transporting freight; and
3. Move AKL based pax to and from DXB.

I assume the above 3 factors result in some profit for EK, even flying them half-full rather than just having them sit there all day doing nothing. I agree QF (and NZ) have gone for frequency over prestige – leisure travellers would love to take an A380 on such a short flight – I think business pax would rather have frequency.

4. Getting Kiwi pax to BKK/SIN/KUL via OZ. At a competitive offering to NZ (and the other star alliance) services

 

[Pejahu]

Emirates utilise the down time of most of A380 non-stops DXB - Australia by continuing on to AKL and quick (ie; no re-fuel) return to Aust.
Departure times for flights Aust-DXB - must be timed for efficient connections at DXB to 20+ European cities.
Rather than leaving planes on ground in Aust for 7-10 hours for the necessary departure times to make those connections
they utilise on the Trans Tasman run. Passenger numbers are not primary consideration - main revenue is cargo.

 

[smit0847]

Emirates utilise the down time of most of A380 non-stops DXB - Australia by continuing on to AKL and quick (ie; no re-fuel) return to Aust.
Departure times for flights Aust-DXB - must be timed for efficient connections at DXB to 20+ European cities.
Rather than leaving planes on ground in Aust for 7-10 hours for the necessary departure times to make those connections
they utilise on the Trans Tasman run. Passenger numbers are not primary consideration - main revenue is cargo.

And I guess there's a 'break even' point where they have to charge pax a certain fare in order to make a profit/break even so they're happier sending out a half-full plane than having $99 sale fares.

 

[d_harris_7]

I'm wondering why Qantas can't use a similar strategy to Emirates....at least from MEL and SYD? The Qantas A380s destined for long haul routes could make a quick trip across the ditch and back once a day. This could also happen from BNE if the Qantas A380s ever depart from there. Expose more of the market to J and A.....as many of us know, once you have experienced the higher classes it is very hard to go back to Y. The 737-800s (Jet Connect) are pathetic.

 

[markis10]

I'm wondering why Qantas can't use a similar strategy to Emirates....at least from MEL and SYD? The Qantas A380s destined for long haul routes could make a quick trip across the ditch and back once a day. This could also happen from BNE if the Qantas A380s ever depart from there. Expose more of the market to J and A.....as many of us know, once you have experienced the higher classes it is very hard to go back to Y. The 737-800s (Jet Connect) are pathetic.

Qantas dont have the A380s spare to do the trip, their utilization is at maximum now.

 

[harvyk]

I'm wondering why Qantas can't use a similar strategy to Emirates....at least from MEL and SYD? The Qantas A380s destined for long haul routes could make a quick trip across the ditch and back once a day. This could also happen from BNE if the Qantas A380s ever depart from there. Expose more of the market to J and A.....as many of us know, once you have experienced the higher classes it is very hard to go back to Y. The 737-800s (Jet Connect) are pathetic.

There could also be some interesting contractual arrangements in place. Qantas is one company when it suits, 10 companies when it suits. Since JetConnect is it's own entity there may be some internal financial issues which would need to be sorted before QF could establish TT routes again as QFi and not via JC, esp if using more desirable aircraft like wide bodies (eg A330's / B747's / A380's), JC could very well feel that QF is muscling in on the turf which they handed over to JC a couple of years back...

 

[RAM]

The aircraft would not be parked overnight in Sydney given it does a day trip across the ditch, parking at Sydney airport for an aircraft is $140 an hour. The real cost of the park for Emirates is the fact the aircraft is not in use, a situation that would happen anywhere in the world which is why they do so many tag flights.

Plus they then have the cost of putting up the plane crew as well.

But that is nothing in comparison to the 12,000 litres of fuel per hour flying though!

 

[RAM]

I find these tag flights fascinating. There are so many in Asia - they’re usually very interesting airlines and products at very low prices – it would be a very interesting TR to see just how far you could get only taking tag/5[SUP]th[/SUP] freedom flights!

People seem to like arriving from DXB early morning and departing for DXB late night so EK is stuck with having A380s that are not needed for 12+ hours per day (much like QF and VA do at LAX). I thought the purpose of the EK A380 AKL flights were threefold:

1. Reduce the costs of parking an aircraft each day in expensive Australian airports;
2. Make some money transporting freight; and
3. Move AKL based pax to and from DXB.

I assume the above 3 factors result in some profit for EK, even flying them half-full rather than just having them sit there all day doing nothing. I agree QF (and NZ) have gone for frequency over prestige – leisure travellers would love to take an A380 on such a short flight – I think business pax would rather have frequency.

Given the A380 has roughly 1/3rd the revenue freight capacity of the B777 it is not a big money spinner from that perspective. Also freight stats out of Syd to NZ for EK are dismal.

From a premium fare perspective unless they're forced - nobody should turn down an Intl A380 for a B737-800.

Quick survey - anyone been on EK TT recently in the privileged seats? What was the loading like?

 

[markis10]

Emirates utilise the down time of most of A380 non-stops DXB - Australia by continuing on to AKL and quick (ie; no re-fuel) return to Aust.
Departure times for flights Aust-DXB - must be timed for efficient connections at DXB to 20+ European cities.
Rather than leaving planes on ground in Aust for 7-10 hours for the necessary departure times to make those connections
they utilise on the Trans Tasman run. Passenger numbers are not primary consideration - main revenue is cargo.

Welcome to AFF, I have a few issues with your post though.
For a start its hardly a quick no refuel return to Australia, the aircraft sit on the ground for four and a half hours. They also certainly refuel, the average flight only carries 5T of freight (hardly the main source of revenue - A380 do 8T max), it would not make sense to ferry over 30T of fuel for the return leg.

 

[PineappleSkip]

Swings and roundabouts in all those EK A380s

Miss the widebody QF flights to AKL with their two abreast seats at the sides. Which is why I just booked LA out on a QF ticket. But like the Competition which made EK back a winner too, still on that QF ticket. Flying AKL-BNE on the return, would you choose $657pp for J on EK or $525 flying Y+ on VA?

One of my housemates commutes AKL-KBL and is flying EK out of DXB tomorrow as is his habit. He marvels at the choice of A380s departing at 10:15, 10:15, and 10:25, and the choice of transit points, but it hardly offers him flexible schedules!

Cheers skip

 

[petermorrison]

I know a lot of posts have been critical of QF et al., but transiting through Auckland on Wednesday in a way showed how hard the industry has become. There were three Emirates A380 sitting at the airport, almost 50% of the pax capacity there at that time! I know its happening at MEL, SYD but being a smaller airport they really stuck out like #$%$ *^&%! A Middle Eastern airline with that much capacity at AKL, to me, does not bear well for the continuing future of local airlines which we are of course seeing, a bit like the boiled frog yarn. But of course I'm absolutely sure there is no subsidy, or extra funding helping the airline industry in the Middle East!!!!

I still think we got the "wrong end of the rope" with the QF-EK deal, and taxiing in with our QF 737-800 past two of the monoliths seemed to reinforce that feeling....

I agree , Qantas and their customers , especially the customers based in WA have got the wrong end of the rope. If you are based in Perth and wish to transit or in fact, go to Singapore or Hong Kong you cannot do it on the red roo! It seems to me that the WA market has been ignored totally by Qantas which is very strange given , Qatar and Etihad are now flying to Perth, Singapore Airlines have added capacity in addition to their LCC Scoot and Cathay have also increased capacity, seems strange to me that Allan Joyce says Qantas cannot make it work out of Perth! I for one prefer to fly to Europe via the Asian cities not the middle of the desert and I am sure I am not alone.

 

[sydstar]

QF seem to view trans-tasman as an extension to their domestic offering when you consider the product. I prefer having more flight choices than being constrained by one wide-body a day. Also, I really find the Jetconnect crew to be excellent.

What I don't understand is why QF do not seem to promote their connections from AKL/WLG/CHC to SYD and beyond more effectively, especially the likes of JNB, MNL, CGK and BKK. The first ex-NZ flights from AKL/WLG/CHC arrive SYD early enough to meet the morning Asia flights ex SYD

...and slightly O/T, but having just come back from ZQN, I'd love to know the thoughts of any 'lucky' EK premium pax fortunate enough to fly on the code share JQ flight up to AKL to connect to their 380!

 

[RailFlyer]

– I think business pax would rather have frequency.

As a regular TT business (job not class unfortunately!) traveller I can confirm we (or me at least) would refer to have widebody comfort + frequency ;-)

I used to regularly fly out from AKL on the ~6am QF flights and return on the ~6pm from Oz the same or next day giving me 1 or 2 full days in the Australian mothership (HQ). However now I have sampled Y on EK, it is hard to resist booking most of a day to travel (which we are entitled to) and taking a leisurely mid-afternoon EK flight out and return on a morning flight a few days later. Rubbish for business hours, but this is compensated by:
1) A much bigger seat (I recently flew out on EK and returned on a 738, despite being in 5F I was amazed how much the side panels between the windows invaded into my personal space - I never noticed that when all I ever took was a 737.
2) EK crews in general are even nicer than Jet Connect. They always give me a personal welcome as a SG QFF and I always have a shadow (as do I most the time on QF also)
3) Food is better on EK
4) IFE choice much bigger on EK (I know the 737 is a physcially smaller plan, but does that really limit the IFE system to having a max of 15 movies!?)
5) EK lounge has never ending bowl of Lindt Balls (part of the reason I need the bigger Y seat)

To add to the problem, I was comped Gold status with AirNZ this year through work. Which I eventually realised meant I could normally get a free PE seat on the 777-300 if I booked a Works fare which is normally only a bit more expensive than EK/QF fare.....

When all QF had to compete against was Virgin's semi-low cost offering or AirNZ who as a non-status passenger put me twice in middle seat towards back of A320... all was in QF's favour, now it is a totally different game.

 

[harvyk]

4) IFE choice much bigger on EK (I know the 737 is a physcially smaller plan, but does that really limit the IFE system to having a max of 15 movies!?)

That's something I've never quite understood, why the smaller planes get a smaller selection of TV and movies on IFE...
Sure I get it, IFE systems are expensive, however hard drive space is not. I my desktop computer at home has enough hard drive space to hold over 500 DVD quality movies, plus over 250 full seasons of TV shows, plus 700 full length CD's, and it's nothing overly special. Whilst I understand certification makes things more expensive, the certification would be on the HDD's mechanical components, not on the density of the platters, or if using SSD, just throw more chips at it, again the certification would be on the device as a whole, not how many bits it can hold.

 

[JohnK]

Qantas dont have the A380s spare to do the trip, their utilization is at maximum now.

From memory didn't QF have 3-4 747's and/or A380's each day sitting in Sydney for 7-10 hours a few years back?

 

[samh004]

From memory didn't QF have 3-4 747's and/or A380's each day sitting in Sydney for 7-10 hours a few years back?

They might have then... but they've since been retiring 747's and not replacing them with anything... and increasing utilisation, so to move forward they're going to need to buy some new planes.

 

[Himeno]

They might have then... but they've since been retiring 747's and not replacing them with anything... and increasing utilisation, so to move forward they're going to need to buy some new planes.

Hopefully if QFi gets back to profit next half like QF is predicting, they firm up those 50 789 options.