Advice please - Etihad refusing compensation for involuntary downgrade

[Caversham04]

Don't know if this is over-paranoia but every time I book a paid J fare, I do a dummy booking of the same flight in economy and screen-shot it.
So far, I haven't had to invoke it but I figure it's good insurance - and in only takes about 5 minutes

Good plan; let's hope it's never required, but a good use of 5 minutes nevertheless!

 

[MEL_Traveller]

I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one - involuntarily downgrading someone (even for the short leg of a longer trip) and refusing to compensate them can never be "the right outcome", otherwise where do you draw the line?

It's run by the airlines and is (unsurprisingly) entirely skewed in their favour..... Their procedures for an on-the-day and in-lounge downgrade automatically allocate you into the most expensive, fully-flexible economy fare bucket, and then they say "Ah-ha - the fully-flexible economy ticket that we forced on you when we downgraded you from business is more expensive than the business class ticket you paid for, so we don't owe you anything". That's not right, fair or morally acceptable, and the proportion of the overall journey is irrelevant.....

Two separate issues here. One is the actual monetary value of the downgrade which under the fare conditions is likely to be very small, if not zero (right outcome). The 'full fare-flexi' issue is probably a bit of a red herring in this particular case.

But that doesn't mean that you can't ask for other compensation such as some miles or points. A one way upgrade (10K or whatever) is probably reasonable.

 

[Caversham04]

Two separate issues here. One is the actual monetary value of the downgrade which under the fare conditions is likely to be very small, if not zero (right outcome). The 'full fare-flexi' issue is probably a bit of a red herring in this particular case.

But that doesn't mean that you can't ask for other compensation such as some miles or points. A one way upgrade (10K or whatever) is probably reasonable.

I've suggested points rather than cash but, to date, Etihad haven't even had the courtesy to reply

 

[odysseus]

Lounge access is available to me anyway as a Velocity Gold, additional luggage allowance wasn't an issue, and the minor difference in points doesn't concern me overmuch - my issue was (and remains) that I paid for Business Class on that leg, was involuntarily downgraded to economy, and am being told that no compensation is due because of the deceitful way that they deliberately skew the calculation in their favour by using the walk-up fully-flexible economy price to calculate that no compensation is due.........

I don't see it's deceitful.

They gave you the next level down, which is as close as possible as it can be. Which in fact meant you did better off.

If they gave you the base economy fare I can imagine some would complain that they were being deceitful and ripping people off by giving them a much lower level than they had paid for.

 

[odysseus]

Correct. Bestjet is acting as agent for Etihad and Virgin.

That's incorrect. While it's true they are the agent, they're also who your contract is with.

To use the same example of Harvey Norman others brought up earlier, if you buy a Sony camera from them, your contract is not with Sony. It's still with Harvey Norman. Travel is no different in that respect. Your contract here is with the agent you bought through.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

That's incorrect. While it's true they are the agent, they're also who your contract is with.

To use the same example of Harvey Norman others brought up earlier, if you buy a Sony camera from them, your contract is not with Sony. It's still with Harvey Norman. Travel is no different in that respect. Your contract here is with the agent you bought through.

Bestjet is the agent for the airlines. Harvey Norman is not the agent for Sony. Harvey Norman has bought the goods wholesale and is selling them on to you.

In the case of travel, the airline is operating the services, the agent (Bestjet) is selling seats on behalf of the operating carrier. Bestjet can't actually perfom the flights itself, nor is bestjet able to vary the terms and conditions of the contract of carriage which are set by the airline.

 

[Caversham04]

I don't see it's deceitful.

They gave you the next level down, which is as close as possible as it can be. Which in fact meant you did better off.

If they gave you the base economy fare I can imagine some would complain that they were being deceitful and ripping people off by giving them a much lower level than they had paid for.

Sorry, but your logic is seriously bizarre - how on earth do you manage to figure that I was better off?? I paid for business class and was forced to travel in economy, with no compensation?!

It doesn't matter which type of economy fare you pay, you're still sat in the same economy seat. It's clearly deceitful to forcibly downgrade someone from business, assign them arbitrarily at the airlines's choice into the most expensive fully flexible economy class fare, and then for the airline to say "Ah-ha - the fully-flexible economy ticket we assigned to you costs more than the business class flight you paid for, so we don't owe you any compensation"

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Sorry, but your logic is seriously bizarre - how on earth do you manage to figure that I was better off?? I paid for business class and was forced to travel in economy, with no compensation?!

It doesn't matter which type of economy fare you pay, you're still sat in the same economy seat. It's clearly deceitful to forcibly downgrade someone from business, assign them arbitrarily at the airlines's choice into the most expensive fully flexible economy class fare, and then for the airline to say "Ah-ha - the fully-flexible economy ticket we assigned to you costs more than the business class flight you paid for, so we don't owe you any compensation"

It is possible the lowest fare bucket didn’t even exist on the flight by the time you were rebooked. Agents can only book what is there, a release of a seat to a lower class would need to be made by yield management.

This can however work in your favour, especially during IRROPS where your ‘new’ higher class can open up a whole range of flights that are otherwise full in lower classes. (Not saying that it was a benefit to you, but if can in other circumstances.)

The issue of airlines rebooking into a full flex is contentious. Especially if it is due to a passenger being bumped. But that’s not what happened here.

 

[agentgerko]

This once again highlights how codeshares do absolutely nothing for passengers. All they do is allow each airline to pass the buck to the other. "Sorry, it's an Etihad problem as it was their flight number" "Sorry, it's a Virgin problem as it was their aircraft" But really, it's a pretty minor problem, missing a J seat on ADL-MEL when going through to London. Annoying but as its part of a through fare it will not be compensatable monetarily. And the luggage compensation would be covered by travel insurance, if you took some out. But can't help but add that a lot of your problems may have been eased had you bought through a experienced travel agent and not a shonky online booking site.

 

[SOPOOR]

the general conensus here seems to be that since it was only a 50 minute flight and since the main long haul part was delivered appropriately the op should suck it up or accept the 10k points (which is fair enough)
so would people be ok if it was the long haul component that was down graded and they got the equivalent points difference of say 50k points (or whatever it may be)

judging by the follow up behaviour or lack of, this is what does not sit well with me

if I went to a restaurant and ordered my steak medium rare, and it came out well done or med well, I still get my steak but im not happy with it
if I tell my waiter about the problem and he says he will get me a new one and doesnt, or says he will talk to the chef/manager and then doesnt come back, then I will be pretty annoyed

obviously not a identical comparison, but the companys conduct is disgusting, is this what is the norm these days?

 

[qfp]

It doesn't seem fair comparing the price of a pre-booked business flight from months previously, with a walk-up economy fare on the day.
If they want to compare fairly, shouldn't they be comparing the walk-up economy fare, with the cost of a walk-up business fare on the day?
It looks like they want to have it both ways, comparing the cheap business fare you paid for in advance, with the expensive economy fare you didn't want on the day.

 

[SOPOOR]

It doesn't seem fair comparing the price of a pre-booked business flight from months previously, with a walk-up economy fare on the day.
If they want to compare fairly, shouldn't they be comparing the walk-up economy fare, with the cost of a walk-up business fare on the day?
It looks like they want to have it both ways, comparing the cheap business fare you paid for in advance, with the expensive economy fare you didn't want on the day.

imagine the outrage on here and the reply or lack of from the airline if you had paid a discounted fare well in advance and compared it to a last minute super expensive price and demanded the difference be credited to you,

yet thats what the airlines are doing but in reverse

 

[odysseus]

Bestjet is the agent for the airlines. Harvey Norman is not the agent for Sony. Harvey Norman has bought the goods wholesale and is selling them on to you.

In the case of travel, the airline is operating the services, the agent (Bestjet) is selling seats on behalf of the operating carrier. Bestjet can't actually perfom the flights itself, nor is bestjet able to vary the terms and conditions of the contract of carriage which are set by the airline.

And being an agent does not prevent your contract being with them.

Yes, Bestjet are the agent for the airlines. Yes, your contract is also with Bestjet. Bestjet also purchases the transport service from the airline and then sells them on to you, the same as HN.

Your last point is no different from Harvey norman, who also can't manufacture the e.g camera themselves, nor can it change details of use and any extra warranty which are set by Sony.

 

[odysseus]

Sorry, but your logic is seriously bizarre - how on earth do you manage to figure that I was better off??

As you stated: "the points for a flexi economy ticket (VA flight number + Gold status bonus) on the revised ADL-MEL trip are marginally more than the Velocity points for the originally-ticketed business-class flight booked on an EY flight number, so they honoured the originally-credited flexi economy points."

 

[MEL_Traveller]

And being an agent does not prevent your contract being with them.

Yes, Bestjet are the agent for the airlines. Yes, your contract is also with Bestjet. Bestjet also purchases the transport service from the airline and then sells them on to you, the same as HN.

Your last point is no different from Harvey norman, who also can't manufacture the e.g camera themselves, nor can it change details of use and any extra warranty which are set by Sony.

Travel agents don’t purchase the ticket and then sell it to you. Once you pay a travel agent a contract is created directly between the passenger and the principal (the airline or cruise line or other travel provider). (That being said, there might be some charter arrangements where the travel agent could also be the travel provider. But that’s not applicable in the OP’s case.)

 

[Caversham04]

As you stated: "the points for a flexi economy ticket (VA flight number + Gold status bonus) on the revised ADL-MEL trip are marginally more than the Velocity points for the originally-ticketed business-class flight booked on an EY flight number, so they honoured the originally-credited flexi economy points."

I also stated that I booked and paid for a seat in business, and was involuntarily downgraded to economy (on a fully-flexible ticket due to VA's procedures). I find it truly bizarre that you consider that the handful of extra Velocity points earnt on the economy ticket means that, overall, I'm somehow better off?

 

[odysseus]

Travel agents don’t purchase the ticket and then sell it to you. Once you pay a travel agent a contract is created directly between the passenger and the principal (the airline or cruise line or other travel provider). (That being said, there might be some charter arrangements where the travel agent could also be the travel provider. But that’s not applicable in the OP’s case.)

That's incorrect. The airline is the service provider. Your contract is with the travel agent.

 

[odysseus]

I also stated that I booked and paid for a seat in business, and was involuntarily downgraded to economy (on a fully-flexible ticket due to VA's procedures). I find it truly bizarre that you consider that the handful of extra Velocity points earnt on the economy ticket means that, overall, I'm somehow better off?

My comment referred that you were better off in respect of points awarded. Of course it was a class of service downgrade due to flight limitations so that aspect is obviously a lower service.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

That's incorrect. The airline is the service provider. Your contract is with the travel agent.

A quick search on google may put your views in perspective.

If we are to consider, hypothetically, that your contract is indeed with the agent. What exactly is the subject matter of the contract? What are the terms? How are the terms enforceable? And when you go to board the flight, can the airline deny you boarding because they don’t have a contract with you?

 

[Mr H]

My understanding is that if you book a ticket through a travel agent, your contract is with the agent, and the agent has a contract with the airline. If you need a change to the airline ticket, you have to go through the agent because they own the booking. If the airline does not perform, you sue the agent and the agent sues the airline unless both the airline and the passenger agree to come to a direct arrangement.

In terms of service on the day, the OP was offered a flight on the day of a lower class, or a transfer to the original class on another day/routing. I am guessing a full refund would also have been available. The passenger's negotiating position is much stronger before accepting any one of these remedies. If a partial reimbursement might have been sought then the time to do it was before accepting the flight change.

In terms of fair compensation, one way would be to work out the total time from start of journey to end of journey and work out the actual percentage of time spent in the economy seat. Then calculate the difference in cost for the entire journey in both economy and business. Then take the percentage of the price difference that equates to the time spent in the economy seat.