Air Asia drama ex-Per

[jb747]

Define 'suitable'.

It has a very specific definition within aviation...but suffice it to say that Learmonth was suitable at all levels.

Would aircraft weight (need to burn off fuel), have come into the decision?

You don't actually need to get an aircraft below max landing weight. It's only the max in certain conditions. They were basically at top of descent for Learmonth. The weather was good. The runway is more than adequate.

But...

There's no ILS, so they'd have to do a manual engine out landing. The is an RNAV though.

This is very similar to an event last year when they shut an engine down near Alice Springs, and then flew to Melbourne.

I'd have no compunction about throwing the 380 into there....

There is an element of captain's choice in all of this, but that's really based on a clean shutdown, with no ongoing issues. That shaking is a big issue.

 

[jb747]

Asking around a few people, it seems that some thought Learmonth could have been a poor choice on the weekend.....

Why? Do the RAAF roll it up at the weekends?

 

[jb747]

All I've come up with so far is that LEA may not have even be on their approved flight plan as a diversion airport.....

Absolutely nothing to do with diversion airports on their flight plan. It's a rat hole....a place you go when the alternative might be a big swim.

 

[ermen]

Possibly. Certainly to the pylon.

Not many choices, other than Learmonth. In many ways, not much different to the Singair 777 that didn't divert to Bangkok, and subsequently caught fire on landing at Singapore.

Why not geraldton? Seems like they were close by there too..

 

[GarrettM]

Why not geraldton? Seems like they were close by there too..

I'd rather go to Learmonth.

According to second hand info provided by company, Perth was chosen as return option, as "there was no capacity to put plane back in the air if no issue was found after landing". That's not gospel though.
No doubt money played a part in the decision. Would Perth ATC have advised captain of Learmonth as best option?

 

[ermen]

Why are people up in arms over what the pilot did? Unless of course there was an egregious breach of safety protocol which of course, we don't know about right now...

Reading the news seems like most passengers were happy and grateful for the pilot for bringing the plane back...

 

[moa999]

How much fire support at LEA?

If the pilot determined that the plane was safe to return then I don't see an issue returning to a better serviced airport.

The prayer thing I suspect is more cultural. Most Malaysians are fairly religious, and I suspect you would have got a similar statement from an Aussie pilot 50 yrs ago

 

[mannej]

Here is the incident that JB is referring to

http://avherald.com/h?article=49cb6da4&opt=0

 

[theblank]

"He (flight captain) said 'I hope you all say a prayer, I will be saying a prayer too and let's hope we all get back home safely'," she told reporters.
Assuming that the quote is accurate, I would think that this is very unprofessional and would scare everyone.

Probably a lot better to say that as opposed to what was said in the Trans American flight 209 incident in 1980

Ladies and gentlemen, this is your stewardess speaking... We regret any inconvenience the sudden cabin movement might have caused, this is due to periodic air pockets we encountered, there's no reason to become alarmed, and we hope you enjoy the rest of your flight... By the way, is there anyone on board who knows how to fly a plane?

I wonder what the pilot is supposed to say in an emergency. If the plane is definitely going to crash, should the Pilot tell the passengers that everything is fine?

This is really an overreaction, its likely only a part of what he said and is more likely to be people taking offense that he said the "p" word.

 

[mannej]

Probably a lot better to say that as opposed to what was said in the flight 209 incident in 1980


I wonder what the pilot is supposed to say. If the plane is definitely going to crash, should the Pilot tell the passengers that everything is fine?

How about along the lines of Capt Eric Moody?

 

[theblank]

How about along the lines of Capt Eric Moody?

The tone of the captains voice would be pretty important also when delivering that message. We passengers probably dont want to hear the pilots screaming (if they are)

When GA421 landed in the river, from watching the reanactments (both english and indo) I dont think the pilot said much to the passengers at all. In that circumstance was a bit different though, they didnt have time for bedside manners, and they didnt have much hope either. The Captain did the "p" thing himself too though.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Why are people up in arms over what the pilot did? Unless of course there was an egregious breach of safety protocol which of course, we don't know about right now...

Reading the news seems like most passengers were happy and grateful for the pilot for bringing the plane back...

I asked up thread whether the shaking could damage the aircraft, to which the answer was [potentially] 'yes'. The captain may not have known at the time if that damage was going to occur, so a landing as soon as possible may have been in order. If the captain was certain there was going to be no damage, Air Asia has had plenty of time to issue a statement to that effect. They haven't.

'just because' the plane made it back doesn't mean the flight crew acted appropriately. Luck could have played a part. We know many airlines were lucky to escape incident flying over the Ukraine, but it doesn't mean their actions were right, or safe.

It's not always necessary, or prudent, to give the benefit of the doubt. In the case of air Asia it may be a consideration to put them on a 'no fly list' until they are otherwise cleared... not the other way around of continuing to fly them until such time as a report comes out. By then it might be too late.

 

[Quickstatus]

Why not geraldton? Seems like they were close by there too..

GER is 3500 feet shorter. QFLink services that airport. Could have gone there too in a pinch but not a lot of runway up the sleeve. LEA much better and was "just up the road"

Maybe the pilots were not confident of doing a manual one engine out landing? And PER was familiar

 

[Blackswan]

Maybe the pilots were not confident of doing a manual one engine out landing? And PER was familiar

If LEA was not chosen for either of these reasons alone, this would be a major concern. Wouldn't/shouldn't these sorts of issues be dealt with in sims?

 

[Quickstatus]

If LEA was not chosen for either of these reasons alone, this would be a major concern. Wouldn't/shouldn't these sorts of issues be dealt with in sims?

The ATSB seems quite thorough in its investigations. If ordinary passengers ask these questions perhaps the agency will as well.

D7 has form - a similar one occurred August last year. D7221 SYD-KUL was near ASP when it had engine problems and diverted to MEL on one engine and the ATSB will probably release a final report in July. The prelim report is here:
https://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2016/aair/ao-2016-101/

 

[jb747]

Why not geraldton? Seems like they were close by there too..

Geraldton is almost certainly not acceptable for 330 operations. It's under 2,000 metres, and I expect that its load factor wouldn't be up to the weight of a 330. If I were so badly on fire that I no longer cared whether the aircraft flew again or not, then I might use, it. Otherwise no.

 

[jb747]

Why are people up in arms over what the pilot did? Unless of course there was an egregious breach of safety protocol which of course, we don't know about right now...

Reading the news seems like most passengers were happy and grateful for the pilot for bringing the plane back...

Because it potentially displays an appalling lack of airmanship....

 

[ozbeachbabe]

So was a PAN declared at all or was it just a 'normal' return to point of departure on one engine?

Probably a lot better to say that as opposed to what was said in the Trans American flight 209 incident in 1980

I wonder what the pilot is supposed to say in an emergency. If the plane is definitely going to crash, should the Pilot tell the passengers that everything is fine?

This is really an overreaction, its likely only a part of what he said and is more likely to be people taking offense that he said the "p" word.

You want the pilot to sound confident that they are going to land not just a cardboard cut out up front who sounds more like a spectator who's along for the ride than a pilot in command. Have a listen to the Rex Skipper who lost a prop on the ABX/SYD flight, that's what I'm talking about. Cool, calm and collected despite being under pressure.

[video]http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-03-17/rex-flight-forced-into-emergency-landing-after-losing-propeller/8364218[/video]

It has a very specific definition within aviation...but suffice it to say that Learmonth was suitable at all levels.

You don't actually need to get an aircraft below max landing weight. It's only the max in certain conditions. They were basically at top of descent for Learmonth. The weather was good. The runway is more than adequate.

But...

There's no ILS, so they'd have to do a manual engine out landing. The is an RNAV though.

This is very similar to an event last year when they shut an engine down near Alice Springs, and then flew to Melbourne.

I'd have no compunction about throwing the 380 into there....

There is an element of captain's choice in all of this, but that's really based on a clean shutdown, with no ongoing issues. That shaking is a big issue.

Hmm no ILS at PER. Wonder how much hand flying the PIC has done and how many non ILS landings if any. Shades of the failed 'slam dunk' OZ 772 incident at SFO.

The tone of the captains voice would be pretty important also when delivering that message. We passengers probably dont want to hear the pilots screaming (if they are)

When GA421 landed in the river, from watching the reanactments (both english and indo) I dont think the pilot said much to the passengers at all. In that circumstance was a bit different though, they didnt have time for bedside manners, and they didnt have much hope either. The Captain did the "p" thing himself too though.

I would hope the praying bit is after the aviate, navigate, communicate bit if there was time.

 

[jb747]

How much fire support at LEA?

If the pilot determined that the plane was safe to return then I don't see an issue returning to a better serviced airport.

With that shaking, there is no way he determined that it was safe. I think it simply shows they don't consider any of the non destination runways along the route.

Fire support is irrelevant. Land and use the slides if you have to. And again, why the concern about fire. It wasn't on fire at the time, so unless the shaking loosens some fuel lines (!), and you do a really bad job of the landing, it won't become an issue.

 

[jb747]

I don't think a case of "engine failure ... plane diverts and lands safely" attracts a ATSB investigation, does it? (genuine question).

If that is the case, can the ATSB take the initiative and think "hmmm .. that looks out of the ordinary, I think we'll investigate that ..."

Some engine failures attract attention, whilst others don't. They might be interested in the cause, or they might be interested in how it was handled. And sometimes both factors are worth a look.