Airline Safety - carriers with poor record

[juddles]

EK407 - A340-500

Emirates Flight 407 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"After being interviewed by investigators, the two pilots of the flight returned to Dubai.[SUP][10][/SUP] In an interview to a Melbourne newspaper, the pilot of Flight 407 revealed he had slept for only three and a half hours during the twenty-four-hour period preceding the accident. The pilot, who asked for his identity not to be revealed to the public, said "I thought we were going to die. It was that close.[SUP][3][/SUP][SUP][2][/SUP] On the subject of fatigue, he mentioned he had flown a total 99 hours during the prior month, one hour short of the maximum 100 flying-hours allowed by Emirates. The pilot and the first officer were asked to resign from Emirates upon their arrival in Dubai, and both did so.[SUP][2][/SUP][SUP][3][/SUP][SUP][11][/SUP]"

hmmmmm....

 

[yohy?!]

With the exception of QF! People will spend extra to fly QF based on their reputation for safety.

The flip side is MH... cheap fares and people will justify their decision despite any evidence which might indicate against it.

I tend to agree with jb747 - the safety 'halo' is a warm and fuzzy idea that people abandon at a certain price point.

I would personally give marks to QF to having very experienced pool of pilots but I don't think they can be lauded for maintenance compared to other carriers these days given most of it is outsourced to the same mobs that everyone else uses ("world's best practice" which really means "no better than the rest").

 

[juddles]

340.... Missed a zero when entering weight into the flight computer IIRC.....
...

entered 262 instead of 362 tonnes

 

[TomVexille]

"After being interviewed by investigators, the two pilots of the flight returned to Dubai.[SUP][10][/SUP] In an interview to a Melbourne newspaper, the pilot of Flight 407 revealed he had slept for only three and a half hours during the twenty-four-hour period preceding the accident. The pilot, who asked for his identity not to be revealed to the public, said "I thought we were going to die. It was that close.[SUP][3][/SUP][SUP][2][/SUP] On the subject of fatigue, he mentioned he had flown a total 99 hours during the prior month, one hour short of the maximum 100 flying-hours allowed by Emirates. The pilot and the first officer were asked to resign from Emirates upon their arrival in Dubai, and both did so.[SUP][2][/SUP][SUP][3][/SUP][SUP][11][/SUP]"

hmmmmm....

Makes you wonder if certain airlines push crew a little too hard.

 

[juddles]

My opinion:

even the worst air carriers in the world are less likely to kill you than your local cabbie.


But I still do enjoy the professionalism of "good" carriers. jb747, I never get to meet QF pilots, but every time I do the longhaul SCL-SYD leg to take my family home, I do it with you guys because I trust you. Thanks

 

[MEL_Traveller]

I agree the two MH losses are hard to balme on MH itself ...

Putting the actual event of MH17 aside... the issue is not so much the day in question, it's the behaviour of the airline's senior management after the fact, and how they plan to deal with the risks in future.

I haven't heard any other airline mention over the course of more than one interview (so it wasn't a one-off error of judgement), that the responsibility for risk assessment of flight paths should be 100% farmed out and the airline should take no steps of its own to check where it's about to fly.

MH is on the record saying airlines such as themselves should be able to focus on on-board comfort rather than flight paths. And in response to military intelligence [that might help form risk assessment going forward]... well ... 'it's an oxymoron'.

The reason MH is on my no fly list is because it hasn't shown a commitment to safety, above all else, going forward.

 

[Foreigner]

Interesting article I came across:

​Jokers, hackers, and airline safety | ZDNet

"Airline safety is no joking matter"...

 

[juddles]

Interesting article I came across:

​Jokers, hackers, and airline safety | ZDNet

"Airline safety is no joking matter"...

"After all, it's not even a month after a co-pilot on Germanwings flight 9525 seems to have deliberately crashed his Airbus A320 into the Alps with no survivors. If someone who might potentially have the ability to crash a plane starts making jokes about it, it must be taken seriously."

Yep. I do not find it funny.

 

[jb747]

Sorry, but if you want to cast stones and sling mud, you could attack even Qantas for a stack of near-misses. You could claim that with QF 32, Qantas came within a beesd_ck of "slaughtering 469 people, while as the engine exploded the crew were casually chatting".

I knew that any comment from me would stir the pot....

I very much doubt that the crew were casually chatting. I know both of the blokes in the hot seats very well, and casual chat during a climb or descent isn't in character for either. Plus it was a route check, and casual chat, at the wrong time, is grounds for failure.

Beyond that, and at the risk of offending the RdC industry, it was an engine failure in a four engined aircraft. There was never any danger of it crashing.

Interestingly, I would still fly on MH. What I've seen them operationally, makes me think much more highly of them than some alternatives.

 

[juddles]

... if you want to cast stones and sling mud,....".

I hope this is clear - the "you" is those news reporting people who barely understand how a plane gets off the ground.

 

[jb747]

I hope this is clear - the "you" is those news reporting people who barely understand how a plane gets off the ground.

That's easy...if they are ugly enough, the earth repels them.

 

[TomVexille]

I hope this is clear - the "you" is those news reporting people who barely understand how a plane gets off the ground.

I would suggest a vast majority of people don't have any idea how a plane gets off the ground

 

[dajop]

MH is on the record saying airlines such as themselves should be able to focus on on-board comfort rather than flight paths. And in response to military intelligence [that might help form risk assessment going forward]... well ... 'it's an oxymoron'. .

Never sure of the context that the statement was made, it's had to tell if that's a firmly held belief or just a response to pressure from a reporter, noting that I have less trust in the media than almost any airline.

What is interesting now, but I noticed when I travelled on SQ 308 SIN- LHR whilst my partner travelled on MH 4 to LHR the next day was the different routes the two airlines take to get between the same points (given that SIN-LHR routing always overflies KUL). SQ vary their routings a bit, most regularly overflying northern India, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Tajikistan, Uzbekistan, Kazakhstan, Russia, Belarus and the EU; whilst other times overflying India, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iran, Turkey, the Black Sea and the EU. Yet MH consistently travel over southern India, the very south western tip of Pakistan (if at all), Iran, Turkey and the EU (with or without Serbia). Not sure which is more risk adverse routing.

 

[juddles]

I understand very clearly the principles of flight. For most aircraft, it is the differential velocity over aerodynamic surfaces that impart lift that enables an object to rise above the force of gravity.

For A380's, it is the curvature of the Earth's surface.

 

[jb747]

What is interesting now, but I noticed when I travelled on SQ 308 SIN- LHR whilst my partner travelled on MH 4 to LHR the next day was the different routes the two airlines take to get between the same points (given that SIN-LHR routing always overflies KUL). SQ vary their routings a bit, most regularly overflying northern India, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Tajikistan, Uzbekistan, Kazakhstan, Russia, Belarus and the EU; whilst other times overflying India, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iran, Turkey, the Black Sea and the EU. Yet MH consistently travel over southern India, the very south western tip of Pakistan (if at all), Iran, Turkey and the EU (with or without Serbia). Not sure which is more risk adverse routing.

The routes used will vary day to day, and can be affected by many things. The overall amount of airways charges (countries charge serious dollars to use their airspace), the weather, forecast turbulence, and especially on the Afghan routes, congestion. Terrain and an aircraft's depressurised capabilities make some routes impractical for certain types.

Of the routes you mentioned, I prefer the Iran route that MH are using, but almost any choice can have issues.

 

[NM]

The pilot and the first officer were asked to resign from Emirates upon their arrival in Dubai, and both did so.

This is the part that most concerns me. What sort of culture does that promote in the company. Its one thing to identify cause, but when it becomes a blame game instead of a "how do we fix this and ensure it doesn't happen again", then the industry as a whole is the loser. All this does is stops the same crew from doing it again, and the only way it stops others doing the same thing is through fear of being found out.

 

[jb747]

For A380's, it is the curvature of the Earth's surface.

No, it's the reason I mentioned above.

 

[jb747]

This is the part that most concerns me. What sort of culture does that promote in the company. Its one thing to identify cause, but when it becomes a blame game instead of a "how do we fix this and ensure it doesn't happen again", then the industry as a whole is the loser. All this does is stops the same crew from doing it again, and the only way it stops others doing the same thing is through fear of being found out.

Very astute. But from what I've seen, this is the normal behaviour. Get rid of the person who made the mistake, and problem solved.

 

[dajop]

The routes used will vary day to day, and can be affected by many things. T
.

What seemed most interesting, MH seems to have very little variation at all until they reach Europe, day after day they seem to follow the same path. Whilst at the same time (+/- 45 mins), in the same aircraft type (A380) on almost the same route (KUL-LHR except obviously SQ passes over KUL rather than commences at KUL) , SQ had considerable variation day to day (which is what one would expect), although the Russian route is definitely more prevalent.

 

[Foreigner]

"After all, it's not even a month after a co-pilot on Germanwings flight 9525 seems to have deliberately crashed his Airbus A320 into the Alps with no survivors. If someone who might potentially have the ability to crash a plane starts making jokes about it, it must be taken seriously."

Yep. I do not find it funny.

Now, United is coming to the party...

free FF miles to friendly folks who hack into their website:

United Airlines wants people to hack its websites, not its planes - Fortune