AJ's pessimism about QFi

[N860CR]

Hi lovestotravel, first time poster and I also happen to be a Qantas pilot. I joined this forum originally with the intent of answering any questions that any of you might have, but then life got in the way and of course the whole industrial saga occurred which took my mind off of things. I'm quite curious about your statement regarding "flight deck wages" as it seems to point to the pilots on huge salaries being at the forefront of Qantas' demise. Where are you sourcing this information from? Have you done a comparison to other airlines to see whether Qantas pilot salaries compare or are inflated? Looking forward to your reply.

Regards,
A330 Driver
Qantas Pilot
Qantas Gold Frequent Flyer (because I pay to buy commercial tickets on Qantas)

Excellent. Might finally be somebody else here with a bit of logic rather than the crew bashing that goes on so often on these forums.

 

[lovestotravel]

Hi lovestotravel, first time poster and I also happen to be a Qantas pilot. I joined this forum originally with the intent of answering any questions that any of you might have, but then life got in the way and of course the whole industrial saga occurred which took my mind off of things. I'm quite curious about your statement regarding "flight deck wages" as it seems to point to the pilots on huge salaries being at the forefront of Qantas' demise. Where are you sourcing this information from? Have you done a comparison to other airlines to see whether Qantas pilot salaries compare or are inflated? Looking forward to your reply.

Hi there

In regards to pilots wages, it's the A380 that I should have mentioned, not the A330.

I also believe there is a surplus of second officers for the A380 which has meant QF is paying quite a bit more to have a FO sitting at the front in leiu

If the A380 is flying full it's less of a problem, but unfortunately they are not

 

[Kefci2000]

If QF was a US airline, it would have gone through chapter 11 years ago and these problems would have been sorted out before they became the issue they are now.

You actually have to be in financial difficulty to file for chapter 11 protection.

qantas have a very strong balance sheet (circa $2 bil cash) however you can not bleed cash at a rate of $250 mil per half and keep it that way

 

[Melburnian1]

A330 driver, thank you for joining the forum: welcome.

loves to travel, here is one source - it's two and a half years old but the relativities may not have much altered. Note it is (as you said) discussing A380 salaries not our good friend 'driving' the A330s' salaries:

Cookies must be enabled. | The Australian

This article below is three years old. Exchange rates will have altered, but it suggested (using today's exchange rate) that a CX pilot at the end of 2010 who had 19 years' experience would be paid a salary of A$240,000 per annum - far less (even with inflation) than the QF apparent median of $415,000 (which also has to be adjusted for any salary including allowances rises since 2011). Note that the QF 2011 figure is a median, or mid point of all salaries, so for it to be a 'median' there must have been quite a few individuals on salaries of higher than A$415,000 at the time.

 

[lovestotravel]

A330 driver, thank you for joining the forum: welcome.

loves to travel, here is one source - it's two and a half years old but the relativities may not have much altered. Note it is (as you said) discussing A380 salaries not our good friend 'driving' the A330s' salaries:

Cookies must be enabled. | The Australian

This article below is three years old. Exchange rates will have altered, but it suggested (using today's exchange rate) that a CX pilot at the end of 2010 who had 19 years' experience would be paid a salary of A$240,000 per annum - far less (even with inflation) than the QF apparent median of $415,000 (which also has to be adjusted for any salary including allowances rises since 2011). Note that the QF 2011 figure is a median, or mid point of all salaries, so for it to be a 'median' there must have been quite a few individuals on salaries of higher than A$415,000 at the time.

Yep compare the wages of a SQ A380 Captain to Qantas and it's almost half

Now multiply that out by the number of captains and then the overpaid first officers etc etc.....

The numbers are not good for QF

As I said the A380 flight deck crew and just hanging out as long as possible and will take a nice package at the last possible minute

Could also talk about the wages of the 747 cabin crew as well, but the days are numbered for them

 

[Melburnian1]

lovestotravel, unless QF renegotiate their EBAs or other salary agreements with for instance their A388 flight deck crew, they aren't going to make many (or any) savings are they?

If the older staff retire, but are simply replaced by less experienced captains and FOs who migrate from the 744s to the 388s, then there isn't any reduction in QF expenses per month is there?

kefci2000, earlier on I expressed a view that it was extremely difficult as things stand at the moment to ever see QFd and particularly QFi ever making a profit (a true 'profit' after non cash items like depreciation) again. Is that your view of are you more optimistic, and if so why?

 

[ABC1]

Any reason you failed to mention that a number of the QF1 DXB-LHR services have also been cancelled?

Because I was specifically referring to the 10..

 

[A330 driver]

A330 driver, thank you for joining the forum: welcome.

loves to travel, here is one source - it's two and a half years old but the relativities may not have much altered. Note it is (as you said) discussing A380 salaries not our good friend 'driving' the A330s' salaries:

This article below is three years old. Exchange rates will have altered, but it suggested (using today's exchange rate) that a CX pilot at the end of 2010 who had 19 years' experience would be paid a salary of A$240,000 per annum - far less (even with inflation) than the QF apparent median of $415,000 (which also has to be adjusted for any salary including allowances rises since 2011). Note that the QF 2011 figure is a median, or mid point of all salaries, so for it to be a 'median' there must have been quite a few individuals on salaries of higher than A$415,000 at the time.

I'm not sure where the median figure of $415,000 has come from, but I can tell you now with absolute authority that figure is completely incorrect. I was consulting with our pilot union on a number of matters leading up to our latest EBA negotiations, including average pay of Qantas pilots vs other airlines, and the average pay is in the mid $200,000's (mainline). The pilot union gets a percentage of your pay as part of their fees, so they know EXACTLY how much the pilots get paid. Our of interest, during the "media war against the staff" (for lack of better description), Qantas claimed that their pilots got paid up to $569,000 per year. This is true in only one specific case, and the pilot in question isn't a regular pilot as he is also an extremely senior training pilot who has many additional duties on top of being a "regular" pilot and also has sway on how Qantas pilots operate the aircraft, hardly a fair comparison.

Random fact, some Jetstar A330 pilots get paid more than Qantas A330 pilots for the same rank.

It should also be mentioned that drastic changes to our conditions and "perks" were put on offer during our latest negotiations. We understand that aviation is an ever changing industry and we need to keep up. Qantas pilots went in with the mindset of "this is what we would like, but nothing is off the table in order to get it". Specifically, AIPA (pilot union) wanted a livery clause which would ensure that any aircraft flown in Qantas colours and livery would be done so on our pay and conditions. In order to secure this, we were absolutely willing to change those conditions, but AIPA would never give away those conditions without some sort of give in return (basic negotiation practice I would have thought). Also, AIPA made the position clear that any existing entity that was flying in Qantas colours that wasn't actually being flown by a Qantas pilot (Jet Connect, Qantas Link (cobham) as examples) would be exempt from this requirement. What boggles me is that we have an excess of pilots in certain ranks (767 springs to mind) where other parts of the Qantas group (qantas freight) are hiring pilots to do the exact same job whislt mainline pilots sit around. They would have no problem filling those positions on their own existing T&C's with current/experienced pilots at NO COST but choose to hire pilots off the street instead.

An interesting fact, when SQ introduced the A380 into the fleet they got a 14% margin on top of the B744 rates. AIPA asked for 9%. Re: the 737, Qantas pilots get paid more than Virgin but do far more work, i.e. are significantly cheaper and extremely effecient. Re: A330, virgin pilots get paid more. Re: CX, with exception of the most recent hired pilots (their conditions have changed), dont forget to add $100,000 AUD for housing allowance that is paid to these pilots on top of their pay. Also, don't forget to add the 13th month bonus pay that is paid to all expats including cx pilots, which is never included in the quoted figures. Out of interest a good friend of mine is the same rank with cx on the A330, I got paid marginally more than him last year but I also worked harder than him.

Random fact, in my first full year at Qantas I got paid less than $70,000 and spent 8 MONTHS out of the country.

 

[A330 driver]

I should also point out that every Qantas pilot I have ever come across, myself included, LOVE Qantas and would like nothing more than for it to succeed. When I hear/read people talking about Qantas and deciding not to fly with us or about how the service/product is bad I take it personally and I hate it. If I was the man in charge I would absolutely change a few things here and there (okay maybe not just a few), but OVERALL I think Qantas does a very good job. This is someone who in a past life used to frequently travel J and P class on a multitude of airlines, so I'm speaking from experience. If I can answer some questions on this forum and change even one persons mind about staying with Qantas or changing to Qantas then I would be happy. The staff would love nothing more than your support for this airline that we love. I know a lot are fed up or have "lost faith" but don't think for one second that we don't love the fact that you fly with us and support us.

 

[lovestotravel]

I should also point out that every Qantas pilot I have ever come across, myself included, LOVE Qantas and would like nothing more than for it to succeed. When I hear/read people talking about Qantas and deciding not to fly with us or about how the service/product is bad I take it personally and I hate it. If I was the man in charge I would absolutely change a few things here and there (okay maybe not just a few), but OVERALL I think Qantas does a very good job. This is someone who in a past life used to frequently travel J and P class on a multitude of airlines, so I'm speaking from experience. If I can answer some questions on this forum and change even one persons mind about staying with Qantas or changing to Qantas then I would be happy. The staff would love nothing more than your support for this airline that we love. I know a lot are fed up or have "lost faith" but don't think for one second that we don't love the fact that you fly with us and support us.

Indeed and this shows during pretty much all of the flight deck announcements on QF. You can tell the front deck crew are very passionate about their jobs and appreciate that you are flying with QF instead of another carrier.

Some of the cabin crew I have found to be a little less friendly over the past few months but I don't blame them given the uncertain future they face

 

[BD1959]

Some interesting facts there A330 driver - thanks!

I'll get the popcorn ....

Regards,

BD

 

[straitman]

Hi A330 driver,

Welcome to the forum. I will send you a PM shortly.

Another aspect that people seem to forget or don't know is that CX did a restructure and significantly changed (read lowered) the pay scales of their pilots some years ago.

 

[SeatBackForward]

I don't doubt the passion and the efforts of their operational staff one bit. The problems with QF are mostly management related issues.

Oh and welcome A330, your input is much appreciated.

 

[Himeno]

You actually have to be in financial difficulty to file for chapter 11 protection

That didn't stop AA.
AA had just as much cash on hand when they entered C11 as QF does.

 

[N860CR]

Good to see some facts coming out. I'd be very keen to calculate an actual average pay across the Qantas pilot and cabin crew group to actually put things in perspective. Qantas pilots, at many levels, are well underpaid compared to overseas crews. When you incorporate the high cost of living in Australia and it starts to get even worse. Given we currently have overseas GPs working in Australia on well over $350k a year, I certainly wouldn't say an airline captain on $100-150k is excessive.

There are a lot of problems at Qantas right now, but they aren't coming from the staff who are working to keep the traveling public safe.

 

[Melburnian1]

I'm not sure where the median figure of $415,000 has come from, but I can tell you now with absolute authority that figure is completely incorrect. I was consulting with our pilot union on a number of matters leading up to our latest EBA negotiations, including average pay of Qantas pilots vs other airlines, and the average pay is in the mid $200,000's (mainline).

A330 driver, thank you again.

It wasn't clear from the above extract of your post whether you comprehended that the annual alleged gross earnings figure I quoted from that admittedly dated 2011 article was for QF A380 pilots at the time, not all 'mainline' pilots. It isn't clear to me whether your figure of an 'average in the mid $200,000s - mainline' is for A388 pilots only or whether it is all pilots from say B717 up to A388.

Perhaps you would be kind enough to answer the occasional question in the 'Ask the Pilot' section of AFF. One pilot who contributes is kind enough to answer most questions, but at times that can be a heavy leisure workload.'

 

[Isochronous]

Another factor to bear in mind considering pilot salaries is income tax. Hong Kong income tax peaks at 17% and in Singapore its 20%. Australia's communist income tax system peaks at 48.5%. So to earn an equivalent salary to a pilot in HK or Singapore, an Australian needs to be paid a much higher gross salary.

 

[quokka77]

Another factor to bear in mind considering pilot salaries is income tax. Hong Kong income tax peaks at 17% and in Singapore its 20%. Australia's communist income tax system peaks at 48.5%. So to earn an equivalent salary to a pilot in HK or Singapore, an Australian needs to be paid a much higher gross salary.

Your figures seem right, but I'd hardly call Australia communist... after all it remains one of the lowest taxed countries in the OECD (according to the IMF).

Two new taxes are on the way, but we shouldn't complain

 

[A330 driver]

A330 driver, thank you again.

It wasn't clear from the above extract of your post whether you comprehended that the annual alleged gross earnings figure I quoted from that admittedly dated 2011 article was for QF A380 pilots at the time, not all 'mainline' pilots. It isn't clear to me whether your figure of an 'average in the mid $200,000s - mainline' is for A388 pilots only or whether it is all pilots from say B717 up to A388.

Perhaps you would be kind enough to answer the occasional question in the 'Ask the Pilot' section of AFF. One pilot who contributes is kind enough to answer most questions, but at times that can be a heavy leisure workload.'

I was referring to all Mainline pilots with that figure (i.e. 737, 767, 747, A330, A380 types ONLY). I missed the reference to that figure being only A380 Captains, I mistakenly dismissed the article after skimming through a few lines as almost all of the articles I read are biased, exaggerated, or untrue. To answer your question, in short yes there would be A380 Captains who make that much, but I doubt the average pay for A380 captains would be that high (it might be starting to get close to that figure when taking into account super, allowances (money paid to cover food whilst away from port), and other expenses that are paid on our behalf. I still have a hard time believing that the AVERAGE pay for A380 captains is that high. To explain in further detail, as some of you would be aware there are 3 pilot ranks within Qantas and each rank carries with it their own responsibilites. As you get higher in rank you would also get paid more. Generally the larger the aircraft, the more you get paid and the more senior you need to be to get onto that aircraft. A rough guess of the pay scales would be as follows:

Trainee Second Officer - circa $38,000 pa. Everybody gets paid this until they complete all of their training and are operating as a pilot, i.e all checks complete and useful to Qantas
Second Officer (most junior pilot, but this doesnt nescessarily mean inexperienced) - Starting around $70,000 pa up to mid/high $100,000's depending on aircraft type and time within Qantas
First Officer - High 100,000's up to mid $200,000's (but working hard at the higher end)
Captain - Mid 200,000's up to High $300,000's (again working hard at the higher end)

For the first 12 years in Qantas your pay (hourly rate) increases every 12 months on the anniversary of your training being completed. The reason for this being a pay rate which is commensurate with your experience within Qantas and your input into the flying operation, so the more experienced you become the more you get paid. This is separate from any EBA pay increases, and it's my opinion that it starts off quite low and evens out once you have been in the company for around 5 years. Every Captain and a large percentage of First Officers have been with Qantas in excess of 12 years so their pay increases are limited only to EBA pay rises.

Now the elephant in the room...overtime. The huge disparity in pay is due to overtime earnt on certain flights. Anything over 12 hours duty is paid additional on top of your salary, the longer you fly the more you get paid. This is where the huge fluctuations occur, and where some individuals can make the system work to their advantage. This is also something that was put on the table to change completely but the response from Qantas was that they were ansolutely not willing to negotiate, nor respond with a counter claim so it never got tractions. This would be a significant cost savings to Qantas.

To put this into perspective, the 737 NEVER gets overtime (doesn't exist in the shorthaul pilot conditions). The 767 never does because of the nature of the flying, the A330 gets an extremely minor amount but only in the Second Officer ranks (who are paid the least out of all of us). The 747 and the A380 get anywhere from zero on some flights up to what is considered a serious amount of overtime (LAX-MEL, SYD-DFW etc). An example of the A330 overtime could be PVG (Shanghai), it's planned duty of 12:05 each way amounts to 10 minutes overtime in total for the trip, but we are almost always early so we generally wouldnt get it.

The pilots flying for JetConnect are paid less (as well as no super), but JetConnect is owned by Qantas and the cost of the infrastructure of this separate entity is actually more expensive to run than if they would just pay Qantas mainline pilots the normal 737 rates and dismantle JetConnect, i.e. it is costing them more overall to run a company aimed to save money by lowering wages. AIPA paid a large well known accounting firm to go through the public books of Qantas and they unoquicically confirmed that this was the case.

The 717 is again an outsourced alternative operated by Cobham and chartered to Qantas. I'm not 100% sure what they get paid actually, but a general rule within the industry basically says that pilots would not treat this position as a long term prospect, rather they would get some good experience and then move onto a better job that paid more. The Dash 8's are separate again (in fact there are 2 separate entities within the Dash 8's, Eastern and Sunstate). Despite both being owner by Qantas, the salaries and conditions are different despite the exact same job descriptions.

It's now 9:42 and I feel I've been rambling so ill leave it there for now. I would be very happy to answer questions on the pilot thread, although I don't know how often ill be checking it)

 

[Himeno]

Anything over 12 hours duty is paid additional on top of your salary, the longer you fly the more you get paid.

When does 'duty' start and end? Takeoff/landing? Gate to Gate? other?