American Airlines flew wrong plane from Los Angeles to Hawaii

[jb747]

Honolulu is the most isolated major city on the planet. Not Perth as is sometimes strangely claimed.

Depends what you're considering. In terms of alternate airports, Perth is terrible. Honolulu has many, at least 3 of which are 380 capable.

 

[knasty]

A raft has nothing to do with ETOPS.

Is this a storm in a teacup?

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Is this a storm in a teacup?

While it may not have anything to do with ETOPS, I think from a passenger perspective you might feel more secure knowing there is life raft space for everyone on board.

But that aside, there doesn't seem to be much clarity over whether there is any difference between the two versions when it comes to life rafts.

 

[basso]

But that aside, there doesn't seem to be much clarity over whether there is any difference between the two versions when it comes to life rafts.

Rafts are about being over water 0 whether you go a certain distance from the shore. The differences in an ETOPS certified aircraft, are, as far as I can tell, not something you can visually tell. I doubt pilots check the level of fire suppression systems, or maintenance schedules or such like everytime they take a plane for a spin.

 

[jb747]

Rafts are about being over water 0 whether you go a certain distance from the shore. The differences in an ETOPS certified aircraft, are, as far as I can tell, not something you can visually tell. I doubt pilots check the level of fire suppression systems, or maintenance schedules or such like everytime they take a plane for a spin.

It's simpler than that. At least on the tech logs that I've used, there is a box that is ticked by the engineers. ETOPS Y/N.

 

[juddles]

....AA A321H and the AA A321S? ....

Who cares about all that ETOPs nonsense - I just want to know if they now have their A321 fully-flat seats doing that route??

 

[maninblack]

Depends what you're considering. In terms of alternate airports, Perth is terrible. Honolulu has many, at least 3 of which are 380 capable.

Context again. You speak from the perspective of a pilot flying large commercial aircraft (especially the A380) but the comment that is often bandied about is simply Perth being more geographically isolated from another main centre than any other major city. Adelaide is a lot closer to Perth than San Francisco is to Honolulu. (Sydney and Melbourne are much closer to Perth too.) But you have provided yet another reason not to fly EK!

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Rafts are about being over water 0 whether you go a certain distance from the shore. The differences in an ETOPS certified aircraft, are, as far as I can tell, not something you can visually tell. I doubt pilots check the level of fire suppression systems, or maintenance schedules or such like everytime they take a plane for a spin.

The actual 'enhancements' may not be visible, but there is 'ETOPS' printed on the door coverings to the front wheel well. Both the dispatcher and pilot missed that the the plane didn't have the 'ETOPS' marking. Although there is some discussion as to whether the pilot was trained to look for this. (Something similar to this picture: http://www.nycaviation.com/2012/04/...g-737-800-is-kind-of-a-big-deal/#.VfjJlBGqpHw )

As for rafts, I guess there is the legal requirement, and then what might make passengers comfortable. There was discussion about whether Australian airlines needed rafts on all their 737s (cost saving measures), even if those are going out over the Great Australian Bite on their way to Perth. Personally, I'd rather have a raft in such a case than not, even if the law says it's not technically required.

 

[basso]

The actual 'enhancements' may not be visible, but there is 'ETOPS' printed on the door coverings to the front wheel well. Both the dispatcher and pilot missed that the the plane didn't have the 'ETOPS' marking. Although there is some discussion as to whether the pilot was trained to look for this. (Something similar to this picture: Why Southwest's First Boeing 737-800 Is Kind of a Big Deal [with Photos] )

It would be about whether such a check was in a checklist. And with the ongoing move toward pilots not doing walkarounds of aircraft, putting it on the wheel well is not always going to help. As for the dispatcher - probably never even got anywhere near a plane. There will be a system error somewhere with identifying the aircraft, it will result in changes.

 

[jb747]

I've flown many an ETOPs aircraft, and never has it been painted on the wheel well doors or anywhere else. I know that some US airlines do this. Whatever is written in the log is the most important factor. An otherwise ETOPs capable aircraft can have the capability removed simply by not doing a daily check, so a marking on the paintwork doesn't mean much.

 

[serfty]

Who cares about all that ETOPs nonsense - I just want to know if they now have their A321 fully-flat seats doing that route??

No -that's the newish three class. This is specific to the 2 class version.

 

[serfty]

I've flown many an ETOPs aircraft, and never has it been painted on the wheel well doors or anywhere else. I know that some US airlines do this. ...

For FlyerTalk, it appears Alaska do so with their ETOPS accredited 738's. Here's a post on the topic from a well respected member their who has been a commercial pilot:

Originally Posted by JDiver
Not exactly, as I understand it. There are two facets of ETOPS certification.

The first is the aircraft type must be tested and approved - A320 family aircraft are ETOPS-180 certified from this side.

The second is the airline must convince the FAA of their ability to conduct ETOPS flights safely and gain ETOPS operational certification. This includes more rigorous preventive maintenance schedules, as well as certified mechanics and flight crew.

The "H" is said to have extra tankage, though I've not seen it documented, and it definitely has safety equipment (e.g. rafts) and an enhanced maintenance schedule for certification.

I flew on Aloha 737-200 that were ETOPS certified (weirdly enough) and the maintenance schedule was more rigorous.

Alaska operates a subfleet of 737-800s that are ETOPS certified; these are the ones that fly to Hawaii, and can be discerned from non-ETOPS certified aircraft by the "ETOPS" on the nose gear door and the flower lei under the Eskimo portrait depicted on the tail.

Maybe AA should paint a two meter wide gold band on the forward fuselage of their ETOPS A320 family aircraft; they might be more obvious.

Maybe some fundi at AA still believes ETOPS is the acronym for "Engines Turn Or Passengers Swim"?

 

[texter]

BTW can this happen here?

What happened to the saga about liferafts on QF 737s?

 

[Sprucegoose]

The practicalities of getting a ceiling raft out are mind boggling however.

Not when you have to !

 

[amaroo]

Makes you wonder if some bother to check if the thing has been filled with fuel