AMEX not accepted or surcharge

[Deleted User]

I'm going to guess that they must get lots of people abusing them for the surcharges - particularly as they charge 3.5% for AX/DC, despite most other hotels charging only 1.5% for all cards.

I would never pay 3.5% surcharge. This is clearly a rip off and should be against the law...! I just paid my PAYG & GST through the ATO credit card portal and they only charge 1.25% for Amex

One has to believe that this extra grab is profiteering... Take your business elsewhere is my advice.

 

[ChrisFlyer]

At 3.5 percent how could it be worth it for FF points? I'd pay but insist on a 10% discount on the whole bill.

I don't usually stay at Rydges, but on this occasion, the rate was already heavily discounted, and included free drinks, breakfast, late checkout, and for a suite, it was much less than a standard hotel room in all other properties that I searched on this occasion.

I value my points at 6c each (although I've found that you can even get 7c/point value by booking certain Award seats in First), and as my card earns 1.5QFF/$1 spent, that's essentially 9c in the dollar, or rewards worth 9% of the purchase value. In this case, the total points earned from using my Amex to pay this bill is 1004, and by the staff member awarding points directly also, I'll earn an extra 1812.

(ignoring the bonus 1812: ) 1004 points = $60.24 of value @ 6c/pt, the surcharge was $22.64, so a $37.60 "profit", as it were

 

[Moopere]

If there are any Melburnians on here, out of curiosity, do you find this to be a common issue in Melbourne? I'm used to seeing businesses that have put tape or paper over the AMEX signs (or have only half of it left after they've tried to rip it off), although the only city that I've really had this problem is Melbourne (happened during my last visit also, although just one cafe)

I've just returned from 2 weeks in Melbourne. I found it a refreshing change from Perth in relation to Amex acceptance. I only pulled my m'card once, at the Museum of Victoria (the Tutankhamun exhibit showing at the moment). Everywhere else accepted my bank branded Amex and I didn't pay a single Amex related surcharge; taxi's, hotels, restaurants, cafe's, retail, everywhere.

I have got so used to pulling my Amex and asking "do you accept this" in Perth ... in Melbourne I found I kept getting the same answer "of course" like I'm foolish to even ask.

This experience has reinforced my view that Amex acceptance is competition and size of business related.

 

[ChrisFlyer]

Hmm... well I hope that my next Melbourne trip is more like yours Moopere!

I thought I'd also let everyone know that I've done a bit of tweaking to the AMEX Merchant Wiki! Considering that the homepage alone has had over 2,000 hits in the last two months (and I haven't linked to it from anywhere else), it's come to my attention that there is a reasonable demand from this community for the information being provided, but that it was difficult for new users (and those not on AFF) to contribute new information and updates.

As such, the Wiki now allows anyone to make their own accounts (rather than having to ask me to create it for you, as was the situation originally). To help prevent random idiots from creating accounts to just post spam, the site does require you to enter a valid email address when registering, and editing rights are not activated immediately... once your email address has been verified (the usual way - by clicking a link that the site will send you), the software then automatically activates editing rights (quite a neat setup, I think)!

Hopefully these changes will lead to a few users being able to help expand the merchant lists (particularly the non-Brisbane pages), which will ultimately result in greater points earn for everyone involved! Of course, all pages are still open for anyone to read without the need to create an account.

PS: If you do register, please be patient when waiting for the confirmation email to arrive - depending on server loads, it can take between 15 and 30 minutes. Also, you may notice a field for your AFF username when registering - fill it in if you'd like, although you're more than welcome to use the same username on the Wiki as you use on here (or to put the same username in both fields)

 

[aschmid]

I have just returned from the US, actually Las Vegas. I have never been asked any question about VISA, MC, or AMEX. As long as tou had a valid credit card you can swipe is all good. Iam not only talking hotels but even taxis you can swipe your AMEX for $10 bugs! Why can't we have this sort of consumer friendly environment in Oz?

 

[Flashback]

I have just returned from the US, actually Las Vegas. I have never been asked any question about VISA, MC, or AMEX. As long as tou had a valid credit card you can swipe is all good. Iam not only talking hotels but even taxis you can swipe your AMEX for $10 bugs! Why can't we have this sort of consumer friendly environment in Oz?

So you had no issues... with an American Express card.... in America?

No further comment

 

[aschmid]

So you had no issues... with an American Express card.... in America? No further comment

Ha, ha, ha funny! When you get the point that "American Express" is a businness/brand name and has nothing to do with United States America (USA) we can talk again!Cheers mate!

 

[lovestotravel]

So you had no issues... with an American Express card.... in America?

No further comment

I find it funny that USA foods here in Melbourne, doesn't accept American Express :shock:

 

[cdp88]

I have just returned from the US, actually Las Vegas. I have never been asked any question about VISA, MC, or AMEX. As long as tou had a valid credit card you can swipe is all good. Iam not only talking hotels but even taxis you can swipe your AMEX for $10 bugs! Why can't we have this sort of consumer friendly environment in Oz?

The irony is that we do have a consumer friendly environment. The RBA credit card reforms meant that businesses could pass on costs of using credit cards so that other customers weren't cross subsidising those of us who do use cards.

I don't have a problem with this per se, I do have a problem with how it has been implemented. The surcharges often have no relationship to the actual cost to the business of accepting the card. This is either because they charge a flat rate, eg airlines, or they blend the cost for all cards so that you're not actually paying the cost of using your particular type of card. There is no transparency about the actual cost so I consider that in many cases we are being ripped off by these surcharges. In addition, the business may be failing to take account of the costs of using other payment channels and is unfairly penalising credit card customers.

When I first took out an amex I tried really hard to put all my spending on it. I was surprised by the number of small businesses that took amex eg small husband and wife vietnamese restaurant, local coffee shop, indian takeaway, but perhaps more surprised by the larger businesses that did not. In the end I could only manage about 1/3 of my spend on amex because all of my bills such as insurance, utilities and rates can only be paid with MC or Visa. Now I have the woolworths MC because I can get $1=1 pt everywhere. I use the plat edge amex at supermarkets and petrol stations because of the $1=3 pts.

In theory, what is happening in america is that cash purchasers are paying more because the business accepts premium credit cards with high merchant costs without passing on a fee to the purchaser. I guess this works well for users of those premium cards but perhaps not so much for other customers.

 

[wxxnxs]

I have just returned from the US, actually Las Vegas. I have never been asked any question about VISA, MC, or AMEX. As long as tou had a valid credit card you can swipe is all good. Iam not only talking hotels but even taxis you can swipe your AMEX for $10 bugs! Why can't we have this sort of consumer friendly environment in Oz?

Because we are in OZ, and don't expect we are gonna be like US. End of story.

 

[Moopere]

In theory, what is happening in america is that cash purchasers are paying more because the business accepts premium credit cards with high merchant costs without passing on a fee to the purchaser. I guess this works well for users of those premium cards but perhaps not so much for other customers.

It seems like that at first galnce doesn't it? Yet, I wonder at the cost of handling cash? Its certainly not zero. Think about the front line cash handling businesses that tend to get robbed, petrol stations, fast food outlets, etc. I'm sure the bean counters at these establishments would have something to say about the inherent cost of dealing with cash. I don't have any figures at all, yet I'd not be surprised if it worked out to be a higher cost than cards.

Imagine if people started rebelling against CC surchasrges and started using cash at say, 5 star hotels. Lets say 20 floors with 30 rooms per floor = 600 room. Assume 70% occupancy = 420 rooms and further assume $300 per night = $126,000 / day, lets also assume that 25% eat in the restaurant at 200$ a table = $21,000.

126,000 + 21,000 = $147,000 per day. Unless everyone is paying in crisp new 100$ bills thats going to literally be a 'big bag of money' requiring daily pickup by an armoured wagon, not to even mention the additional risk worn by front desk staff due to armed robbery.

 

[cdp88]

It seems like that at first galnce doesn't it? Yet, I wonder at the cost of handling cash? Its certainly not zero. Think about the front line cash handling businesses that tend to get robbed, petrol stations, fast food outlets, etc. I'm sure the bean counters at these establishments would have something to say about the inherent cost of dealing with cash. I don't have any figures at all, yet I'd not be surprised if it worked out to be a higher cost than cards.

Imagine if people started rebelling against CC surchasrges and started using cash at say, 5 star hotels. Lets say 20 floors with 30 rooms per floor = 600 room. Assume 70% occupancy = 420 rooms and further assume $300 per night = $126,000 / day, lets also assume that 25% eat in the restaurant at 200$ a table = $21,000.

126,000 + 21,000 = $147,000 per day. Unless everyone is paying in crisp new 100$ bills thats going to literally be a 'big bag of money' requiring daily pickup by an armoured wagon, not to even mention the additional risk worn by front desk staff due to armed robbery.

I agree, there is a cost to them handling cash. What I resent is that they pass on the full merchant charge (or more) for credit cards but absorb it for other payment methods. Instead if cash costs them 1% to handle, and the card fees are 3%, they should only charge 2% for the card. I can understand some surcharges from businesses that mainly deal in cash or direct deposits, ie tradespeople. But if you are primarily accepting cards for payment why surcharge? Shouldn't it be built in to your prices?

 

[Moopere]

I agree, there is a cost to them handling cash. What I resent is that they pass on the full merchant charge (or more) for credit cards but absorb it for other payment methods. Instead if cash costs them 1% to handle, and the card fees are 3%, they should only charge 2% for the card. I can understand some surcharges from businesses that mainly deal in cash or direct deposits, ie tradespeople. But if you are primarily accepting cards for payment why surcharge? Shouldn't it be built in to your prices?

Yes, I subscribe to that absolutely. Its a cost of doing business really, why expose that to your customers?

In the same way, I am astounded that car rental companies continue to tell me their cars are $30/d + 10 for registration recovery + 10 for administration recovery + 20 for compulsory insurance. Its not 30$ a day, its 70$ a day and there is no reasonable way to reduce that - so, why expose it? Just advertise the real cost and work out your sums in the back office in order to keep your business profitable. Same with airlines, whats with the taxes and surcharges? You can't escape them, just add them to the ticket cost and present that to your customer.

Alas, these problems, and the credit card surcharge, is a marketing beast gone mad. The restaurant selling a 30$ meal doesn't want to list that meal at $30.90 ($30+3%).

 

[hummel]

Had a specialist's appointment this morning... they accepted Amex

Yet... restaurants/petrol stations want to surcharge...

 

[docjames]

Had a specialist's appointment this morning... they accepted Amex

Yet... restaurants/petrol stations want to surcharge...

Current offer is 1.49%.....

 

[zzyss]

It seems like that at first galnce doesn't it? Yet, I wonder at the cost of handling cash? Its certainly not zero. Think about the front line cash handling businesses that tend to get robbed, petrol stations, fast food outlets, etc. I'm sure the bean counters at these establishments would have something to say about the inherent cost of dealing with cash. I don't have any figures at all, yet I'd not be surprised if it worked out to be a higher cost than cards.

Let's not even talk about the intangible "risks". There's the actual equipment itself (cash registers), the time taken to process the transaction (counting and adding up seems like a taxing task for a large number of cheap wage-slaves out there), people giving stupid change (paying large amounts with small change, or small amounts with big notes), the time taken to bank the funds (visiting a bank, which are only open during business hours, so you must do it while on the clock).

But back to the risks, there's also mishandling (giving incorrect change), employee theft, money laundering, etc.

Most businesses seem to consider the whole cost of Amex (for the sake of argument 2%) and think of it as "OMG 2%!", and that the cost of V/M is only (again for arguments' sake) 1% - not realising that the difference between the two is only 1%. I'm sure in reality that amount is even less.

I have said often before, and can't stress enough, that if a business thinks ostracising the fraction of their customers who ultimately only costs them a fraction more, then they are incredibly naive. Sorry if that sentence doesn't make sense. Let me try and illustrate.

Say your business turns over $3000 a day
Say 1/3 of your customers pay using Amex if they could
So $1000 paid via Amex
Costs you $20 in fees (still going by my exaggerated 2% fee)
Cost you $10 more than if the customers paid via V/M

$10 frackin' dollars out of $3000!

 

[lovestotravel]

Let me try and illustrate.

Say your business turns over $3000 a day
Say 1/3 of your customers pay using Amex if they could
So $1000 paid via Amex
Costs you $20 in fees (still going by my exaggerated 2% fee)
Cost you $10 more than if the customers paid via V/M

$10 frackin' dollars out of $3000!

I know what you are trying to say, but a business looks at it another way.

Turnover is not profit
Out of that $3000, let's say they make $1000 profit
So that's 1% of profit "Lost"
Multiply that out over the year $3650

A business usually thinks that customers will pay by another method if they can't use Amex. Most customer will do this, until a business realises that some people will walk, this process will continue.

One of my favourite coffee shops, changed banks for their banking and has new EFTPOS machines. They now do not accept Amex, and are blaming Amex/Westpac..... I used to spend about $100 a week there, but now I will go elsewhere because of the lack of Amex acceptance.

For me $100 per week is $4800 per year roughly and therefore about 7000 Amex points which I value at $560 of value

 

[cove]

At a value of 8 cents per point what class are you flying and where are we going to extract that high point value?

 

[Deleted User]

I know what you are trying to say, but a business looks at it another way.

Turnover is not profit
Out of that $3000, let's say they make $1000 profit
So that's 1% of profit "Lost"
Multiply that out over the year $3650

A business usually thinks that customers will pay by another method if they can't use Amex. Most customer will do this, until a business realises that some people will walk, this process will continue.

One of my favourite coffee shops, changed banks for their banking and has new EFTPOS machines. They now do not accept Amex, and are blaming Amex/Westpac..... I used to spend about $100 a week there, but now I will go elsewhere because of the lack of Amex acceptance.

For me $100 per week is $4800 per year roughly and therefore about 7000 Amex points which I value at $560 of value

Me thinks we should go back to our favorite coffee shops, but this time take along a nice BIG bag of 5 cent pieces...based on you average spend there of $100 per week, this works out to $20 per day (or 400 coins @ 5 cents each) At the end of the week they will have a nice hefty cache of around 2,000 5 cent pieces to count and get rid of... This will make them mad for sure, at this stage I would remind them that you would normally save the hassle and pay with amex, but since they clearly prefer cash then so be it...!

After all, the lonely 5 cent piece is still legal tender and must be accepted for payment of goods. After the above game, they might actually see that cash also costs them profit and if it is as we all expect, cash turns out to be more expensive than credit cards such as Amex. You never know, some may actually change their opinion of credit card costs...

Just my 5 cents worth

 

[Moopere]

After all, the lonely 5 cent piece is still legal tender and must be accepted for payment of goods.

I'm not 100% sure about this. Yes, its legal tender, but I believe there are guidelines in place about trying to pay for goods with ridiculous amounts of small change. I don't have any clue what level these bars might be set at.

After the above game, they might actually see that cash also costs them profit and if it is as we all expect, cash turns out to be more expensive than credit cards such as Amex. You never know, some may actually change their opinion of credit card costs...

You'd like to think so, and it would produce a certain amount of fun trying, but I think they'd miss the point entirely and simply view you as an annoying customer who they'd prefer to lose

My own suspicion is that these business, who work in areas where Amex is common just end up scratching their chins, unable to understand why they can't sustain/grow their business. In the end, they probably close, for any number of reasons, but completely unable to understand that a big part of it was probably that they simply didn't understand customer service.

Not trying to say that many businesses in Oz would close for the one sole reason of not accepting Amex of course, that would be silly, but I think its indicative of a certain mind-set which doesn't understand customers.