Any likelihood of Qantas returning to Frankfurt?

in my utopia Avgeek Oneworld mind, I’m picturing post Ukraine/Russia war when AY once again dominated East Asia-Euro connections. QF and AY expand their partnership from their A330 lease to a full JV on Kangaroo route:

1. B787 either from PER/BNE-SIN continues to HEL and/or

2. QF continues one of their SYD/MEL/BNE-HND onto HEL. 3 way JV with JL/AY/QF on OZ to HEL via HND.

While this may clash with QF’s SIN kangaroo route, pre covid the Japan to HEL routed seem to be doing well and QF tapping into this along AY/JL partnerships could work…

Doesn’t seem FRA is a priority for QF in the short term
 
The issue I see with Qantas flying to the German capital* of Frankfurt is who do you connect with for onward travel to Europe? Frankfurt is a Star Alliance hub so it would make more sense to either expand service to existing hubs like LHR or maybe expand to destinations of other partners like Madrid for Iberia or Helsinki for FinnAir. And for those wondering yes Rome and Paris make sense given their partnership with KLM/Air France.

-RooFlyer88


* whilst not the official capital nor the largest city in Germany, Frankfurt is the aviation capital of Germany and one could also the economic capital too.
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The issue I see with Qantas flying to the German capital* of Frankfurt is who do you connect with for onward travel to Europe? Frankfurt is a Star Alliance hub so it would make more sense to either expand service to existing hubs like LHR or maybe expand to destinations of other partners like Madrid for Iberia or Helsinki for FinnAir. And for those wondering yes Rome and Paris make sense given their partnership with KLM/Air France.

-RooFlyer88


* whilst not the official capital nor the largest city in Germany, Frankfurt is the aviation capital of Germany and one could also the economic capital too.
 
kangarooflyer88 said:
The issue I see with Qantas flying to the German capital* of Frankfurt is who do you connect with for onward travel to Europe? Frankfurt is a Star Alliance hub so it would make more sense to either expand service to existing hubs like LHR or maybe expand to destinations of other partners like Madrid for Iberia or Helsinki for FinnAir. And for those wondering yes Rome and Paris make sense given their partnership with KLM/Air France.

-RooFlyer88


* whilst not the official capital nor the largest city in Germany, Frankfurt is the aviation capital of Germany and one could also the economic capital too.
Post automatically merged:

The issue I see with Qantas flying to the German capital* of Frankfurt is who do you connect with for onward travel to Europe? Frankfurt is a Star Alliance hub so it would make more sense to either expand service to existing hubs like LHR or maybe expand to destinations of other partners like Madrid for Iberia or Helsinki for FinnAir. And for those wondering yes Rome and Paris make sense given their partnership with KLM/Air France.

-RooFlyer88


* whilst not the official capital nor the largest city in Germany, Frankfurt is the aviation capital of Germany and one could also the economic capital too.
Click to expand...
FRA (or BER) would be a destination port not a hub. QF flew there for years until the EK partnership. I don’t recall many peeps using it as a means to go onwards but there might have been some limited codeshares.
 
SYD said:
FRA (or BER) would be a destination port not a hub. QF flew there for years until the EK partnership. I don’t recall many peeps using it as a means to go onwards but there might have been some limited codeshares.
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Fair enough, although I do question how much of a destination Frankfurt or Berlin for that matter is compared to the rest of Europe. If there is one thing Qantas is lacking its coverage in Europe. I mean sure they can get you to LHR from which point BA will take you to much of Europe, but it's a pain: you have to switch from T3 to T5 (or vice versa) re-clear security, and then when you finally get to your destination, go through immigration. Contrast that with connecting in a Schengen member country that has a OneWorld airline like Spain or Finland, you get off the plane, clear immigration and then proceed to your gate. No need to switch terminals (at least in Finland) or re-clear security. Additionally, flying to someone on the continental will cut down on travel times for connecting passengers (i.e. once you're in Madrid you can get to anywhere in Europe very quickly).
Contrast this with their coverage in North America which I would argue is quite good. With regular flights to LAX which from there can get you to just about anywhere in North America straight away plus the occasional daily flights to other hubs like DFW and YVR (to connect to Qantas Canada service).

-RooFlyer88
 
kangarooflyer88 said:
Fair enough, although I do question how much of a destination Frankfurt or Berlin for that matter is compared to the rest of Europe. If there is one thing Qantas is lacking its coverage in Europe. I mean sure they can get you to LHR from which point BA will take you to much of Europe, but it's a pain: you have to switch from T3 to T5 (or vice versa) re-clear security, and then when you finally get to your destination, go through immigration. Contrast that with connecting in a Schengen member country that has a OneWorld airline like Spain or Finland, you get off the plane, clear immigration and then proceed to your gate. No need to switch terminals (at least in Finland) or re-clear security. Additionally, flying to someone on the continental will cut down on travel times for connecting passengers (i.e. once you're in Madrid you can get to anywhere in Europe very quickly).
Contrast this with their coverage in North America which I would argue is quite good. With regular flights to LAX which from there can get you to just about anywhere in North America straight away plus the occasional daily flights to other hubs like DFW and YVR (to connect to Qantas Canada service).

-RooFlyer88
Click to expand...
There must have been a decent demand to warrant a coal fired B744 to fly the route 5 or 6(?) days a week!

QF otherwise used to have the Euro hub with BA (and yes, it was a PITA back tracking - actually, there are still some routes on BA out of LHR).

EK now picks up most of the primary ports (1 stop ex Oz) and a bunch of secondary ports.

They do have the AY and now AF/KL tieups. So there are a lot of options.

But OW missing a middle man in Europe is a bit of a hole.
 
SYD said:
There must have been a decent demand to warrant a coal fired B744 to fly the route 5 or 6(?) days a week!

QF otherwise used to have the Euro hub with BA (and yes, it was a PITA back tracking - actually, there are still some routes on BA out of LHR).

EK now picks up most of the primary ports (1 stop ex Oz) and a bunch of secondary ports.

They do have the AY and now AF/KL tieups. So there are a lot of options.

But OW missing a middle man in Europe is a bit of a hole.
Click to expand...

Back in the days of QF to FRA it seemed to be filled with lots of German backpackers, Germans holidaying in Australia etc, very few Aussies, this was all really before the ME3 etc, QF isn’t chasing that type of traffic anymore.
 
AY means overflying continental Europe and then flying back again to get to places like Germany - adds another few hours to the flights to get there. QF really need a gateway partner in SE Europe to be what LAX is for Aussies flying to the U.S. Dubai used to be that gateway - fly QF to DXB then EK to a very wide range of cities across Europe - but then they ditched that and went back to Singapore... which doesn't make a lot of sense as SIA aren't a partner or even in OneWorld - so Singapore makes no sense at all really...
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AY means overflying continental Europe and then flying back again to get to places like Germany - adds another few hours to the flights to get there. QF really need a gateway partner in SE Europe to be what LAX is for Aussies flying to the U.S. Dubai used to be that gateway - fly QF to DXB then EK to a very wide range of cities across Europe - but then they ditched that and went back to Singapore... which doesn't make a lot of sense as SIA aren't a partner or even in OneWorld - so Singapore makes no sense at all really...
 
RSD said:
AY means overflying continental Europe and then flying back again to get to places like Germany - adds another few hours to the flights to get there. QF really need a gateway partner in SE Europe to be what LAX is for Aussies flying to the U.S. Dubai used to be that gateway - fly QF to DXB then EK to a very wide range of cities across Europe - but then they ditched that and went back to Singapore... which doesn't make a lot of sense as SIA aren't a partner or even in OneWorld - so Singapore makes no sense at all really...
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AY means overflying continental Europe and then flying back again to get to places like Germany - adds another few hours to the flights to get there. QF really need a gateway partner in SE Europe to be what LAX is for Aussies flying to the U.S. Dubai used to be that gateway - fly QF to DXB then EK to a very wide range of cities across Europe - but then they ditched that and went back to Singapore... which doesn't make a lot of sense as SIA aren't a partner or even in OneWorld - so Singapore makes no sense at all really...
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I suspect QF routes QF1/2 via Singapore because it's a good stop over for its London flight. Not because it's intended to be a hub for a partner or SE Europe flights.
 
hutch said:
I suspect QF routes QF1/2 via Singapore because it's a good stop over for its London flight. Not because it's intended to be a hub for a partner or SE Europe flights.
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That can be the only reason! Dubai was both a good stop on the way to London and obviously was a partner hub into Europe with EK - it made sense when they started using DXB - and no sense why they stopped it...
 
vmile said:
"did not see the value in EK codeshare"
Actually, it is fairly simple.
QF SC earn
Click to expand...
Yep - about an extra 70 SC's going to Dubai in J compared to SIN and then SC's on the onward flight on EK to anywhere in Europe (using a QF flight number on EK metal). Was also very good for those of us travelling to Africa as well - DXB effectively served as a transit hub for two continents.
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justinbrett said:
The pax voted with their feet. They didn't like DXB.
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Were the numbers substantially down? I didn't hear anything about that.
 
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RSD said:
QF really need a gateway partner in SE Europe to be what LAX is for Aussies flying to the U.S.
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There are some options I can think of like Greece (Aegean), Turkey (Turkish), both of which are enroute to Europe and have host airlines that have good European connectivity. Ofcourse they are in the wrong alliance. Then again, that didn't stop Qantas from partnering with Air France/KLM.

I do wonder if QF could rely on JetStar and the partnerships they form to close that gap. For instance, a partnership with RyanAir or EasyJet from a European hub like ATH to get people to Europe.
RSD said:
Dubai used to be that gateway - fly QF to DXB then EK to a very wide range of cities across Europe - but then they ditched that and went back to Singapore... which doesn't make a lot of sense as SIA aren't a partner or even in OneWorld - so Singapore makes no sense at all really...
Click to expand...
I could see why they ditched DXB. Yes, EK had a good selection of flights to Europe, but EK is basically the only airline at the airport. Whereas with LHR it's a truly global airport hosting all of Europes major airlines. There are other issues I suspect with connecting at DXB like the quality of the airport, lounges and other things that might make passengers feel uncomfortable but for which I will not go into lest I open a can of worms. The other issue I see here is one of $$$. That is, how did the arrangement work with EK when QF was operating flights to Europe via DXB? Did EK keep most of the money as they were the connecting partner bringing them to Europe or was it Qantas since they were the ones that delivered the passengers to them?

vmile said:
"did not see the value in EK codeshare"
Actually, it is fairly simple.
QF SC earn
Click to expand...
Indeed, when looking at flights operated by EK, the first thing I'll see is if I can get marketed by QF for the status credits and points (pl
 
RSD said:
Yep - about an extra 70 SC's going to Dubai compared to SIN and then SC's on the onward flight on EK to anywhere in Europe (using a QF flight number on EK metal). Was also very good for those of us travelling to Africa as well - DXB effectively served as a transit hub for two continents.
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Were the numbers substantially down? I didn't hear anything about that.
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I mean given QF likes making money... Logic implies they compared how Dubai was going and works for them verse how Singapore does.
 
hutch said:
I mean given QF likes making money... Logic implies they compared how Dubai was going and works for them verse how Singapore does.
Click to expand...
I can think of other reasons why AJ might have wanted to transit through somewhere other than DXB.
 
justinbrett said:
The pax voted with their feet. They didn't like DXB.
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Just had a quick look at that article - interesting, but without numbers flying SYD-DXB-LHR compared to SYD-SIN-LHR we really have nothing definitive to compare. For those transiting onto somewhere other than LHR then presumably Qantas would make more money carrying them as far as DXB vs carrying them as far as SIN.
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hutch said:
Though QF started flying there while he was CEO. I would assume 5 years of data helps in decision making...
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Did AJ ever use data to justify the decisions that have left Qantas in the mess that it currently is?
 

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