Article: Free Chairman’s Lounge for Politicians: A Conflict of Interest?

[TheEqualiser]

That's surprising, I do work with a federal department and the invoices I see which are charged to the department are the discounted prices. The fee paid to the said travel agency is miniscule compared to the invoiced fare vs full retail price.

Ditto re discounted prices (at a state level, for me rather than federal). I did board an EK flight to DXB recently with a former PM in the queue next to me - I headed to J but I didn't see him for the rest of the flight

 

[Forg]

That's surprising, I do work with a federal department and the invoices I see which are charged to the department are the discounted prices. The fee paid to the said travel agency is miniscule compared to the invoiced fare vs full retail price.

Her section is one of only two sections in her … I dunno, “organisation” (I don’t know what the correct name would be), that makes a “profit” in her ”organisation”. I mean her clients are primarily Oz government so it’s just shuffling money between departments anyway. But anyhoo, she gets shafted on pretty-much everything related to money, as they siphon off any cashflow she has to pay for those other sections, which she wouldn’t mind so much if they didn’t pretend so hard that it wasn’t happening. Her department will almost definitely only be billed what QF or VA are charged, but she won’t ever have to pay that amount, she pays the amount she gets billed by her department. Same as she pays $6k to buy a Dell desktop, no way the department is paying that.

For OS trips she used to contact the sole travel agent they’re allowed to use (usually a business run by a high-level Canberra public-servant’s mate), get a price, look on WebJet to find the discounted price for that travel class on the same flight, then call the travel agent who’d then charge the discounted price. But that system’s gone, she’s now only allowed to accept whatever price they come back with.

Approval for travel is similarly divorced from reality. I don’t think she gets actually billed this “higher price” stuff, but to get approval for travel & accomodation she has to justify the cost at the rate the travellers are “entitled to”. So if she flies/pays economy & stays in a $50/night dorm-room for a week of a critical conference, justification for that travel is made at the full-fare cost of flying J on a QF-tier airline plus something like $250/night for accomodation. So if three people are going, it can actually cost about $6k but she has to put forward a business-case for that critical travel at a cost of closer to $30k. I suspect the reason for that is because if oh no the public ever found out, Fox News Australia wouldn’t have a story about how public servants are flying cramped-up in economy & sleeping in dorm rooms because they take that hit to keep the section running, Fox News Australia would instead have the story about the outrageous $30k junket on the public purse (which never happened). Sometimes I think the government spends more on avoiding “corruption” than corruption would cost if public servants were allowed to work in the same way as the private sector …

 

[Ade]

At SYD I was passed by Charlize Theron accompanied by a QF staff member heading down the corridor and past the F lounge where we were headed. I doubt that they were taking her to the QP.

From what I'm told, again this is hearsay, no reports to confirm for or against - the CL in SYD international is between the F & J lounges and looks like a fire door or a service door. There seems to be an access to the CL via an undisclosed entry, that only certain staff in any given shift have access to.

I'm fairly confident that a few of AFF members may have had the chance to go the CL in SYD Intl.

 

[Ade]

Furthermore I love that I'm speaking from experience.

Noiceeeeeeee @harvyk

 

[Travel_Mate]

Her section is one of only two sections in her … I dunno, “organisation” (I don’t know what the correct name would be), that makes a “profit” in her ”organisation”. I mean her clients are primarily Oz government so it’s just shuffling money between departments anyway. But anyhoo, she gets shafted on pretty-much everything related to money, as they siphon off any cashflow she has to pay for those other sections, which she wouldn’t mind so much if they didn’t pretend so hard that it wasn’t happening. Her department will almost definitely only be billed what QF or VA are charged, but she won’t ever have to pay that amount, she pays the amount she gets billed by her department.

For OS trips she used to contact the sole travel agent they’re allowed to use (usually a business run by a high-level Canberra public-servant’s mate), get a price, look on WebJet to find the discounted price for that travel class on the same flight, then call the travel agent who’d then charge the discounted price. But that system’s gone, she’s now only allowed to accept whatever price they come back with.

Approval for travel is similarly divorced from reality. I don’t think she gets actually billed this “higher price” stuff, but to get approval for travel & accomodation she has to justify the cost at the rate the travellers are “entitled to”. So if she flies/pays economy & stays in a $50/night dorm-room for a week of a critical conference, justification for that travel is made at the full-fare cost of flying J on a QF-tier airline plus something like $250/night for accomodation. So if three people are going, it can actually cost about $6k but she has to put forward a business-case for that critical travel at a cost of closer to $30k. I suspect the reason for that is because if oh no the public ever found out, Fox News Australia wouldn’t have a story about how public servants are flying cramped-up in economy & sleeping in dorm rooms because they take that hit to keep the section running, Fox News Australia would instead have the story about the outrageous $30k junket on the public purse (which never happened). Sometimes I think the government spends more on avoiding “corruption” than corruption would cost if public servants were allowed to work in the same way as the private sector …

I agree with the part about the hoops needing to be jumped to get travel approved, especially at the international level........I don't agree with flying Y and having to get approval for J (I never seen that before), if you fly domestic its Y (except for band 1 and above) and all international is J, and you seek approval accordingly. And please grow up with the whole "Fox News Australia" thing, any mainstream media organisation (including the ABC) would run with such a story as it generates likes and clicks. But yes, the cost of "avoiding perceived corruption" is at times greater than the realised savings to the taxpayer.....

 

[The Flying Brick]

Are you sure, on the receiving of points? Provided they book through the right channels, then I don't believe they earn points when travelling on duty; only SCs. Their contracts and rate access with QF/VA and others would cover this. Same applies to hotel stays (if booked on the right rates - harder to control). Government rates generally get the nights or stays to accumulate towards status, but not the points.

Cheers,
Matt.

Federal politicians (and staffers) haven't earned FF points since 2010 for travel when the then Finance Minister, Lindsay Tanner signed new travel contracts with both Qantas and Virgin.

 

[Drummer]

Agreed 100%. Realistically all the CL offers is a private place to sit, some free food and booze, priority access to customer service reps and choice of seats on aircraft.

My thoughts to that is:

Politicians are excellent at finding free food and booze (my Mrs used to work catering at Parli house, there was one certain ex-poli who was an expert at inviting herself to functions and going straight for the booze), and they are quite good at getting invites to functions. So free food / booze isn't exactly a game changer.

Priority access to customer reps, well once you get to a certain level in life, you get priority access to all companies (not just airlines either), QF is just upfront about this little perk.

Choice of seats on aircraft, I've got a better choice of seats on an aircraft than many other people on that aircraft. Yes not CL level of access, but that NB sitting next to me may not realize that. Again it's not a oh yee gods type perk.


All companies lobby government. Some are quite good at keeping it under the table, others are a little more overt. In QF's case they have basically published how they are treating the pollies. This is also not to say that QF (and VA) haven't got lobbyist working in the background which we don't know about. I would suggest that the billions in dollars of payments during COVID was perhaps more the result of lobbying efforts rather than CL membership.

Agreed. Well put. My only beef about QF and the $2b is that the gov should have taken equity in them. Yeah, I know...I'll get me coat.

 

[dairyfloss]

From what I'm told, again this is hearsay, no reports to confirm for or against - the CL in SYD international is between the F & J lounges and looks like a fire door or a service door. There seems to be an access to the CL via an undisclosed entry, that only certain staff in any given shift have access to.

I'm fairly confident that a few of AFF members may have had the chance to go the CL in SYD Intl.

I've worked with CL members who asked QF about CL when at T1 and they were told there isn't anything there but the F lounge... Perhaps what you refer to (I know where you mean) is part of the SYD VIP offering, but located near the QF lounges for catering? They have 2 or 3 of those VIP Lounges at SYD T1 but I've no idea where

 

[Forg]

I agree with the part about the hoops needing to be jumped to get travel approved, especially at the international level........I don't agree with flying Y and having to get approval for J (I never seen that before)

You don't think they should be doing it, or you didn't previously know it happened?
I can understand it, if they're committed to their section surviving.
I don't know whether I'd choose to attend a 5 day conference in Germany with economy travel either way & not being allowed to take time off while there (unless you pay for the fare yourself) if I were in that situation ... I really hate being jammed-in so tight for so long, I don't think I would, especially only having 5 days to recover in between.

Now apologies about the poorly-formatted multi-quote as I don't know how to do it here:
...
> And please grow up with the whole "Fox News Australia"
> thing, any mainstream media organisation (including the
> ABC) would run with such a story as it generates likes and
> clicks.
...

Ah sorry I didn't intend to single them out as the only media outlet that would do that, I just used the one which has the best combination of "everyone reading this blurb will know the name of" and "everyone reading this blurb will know them as unashamed liars" for exaggerative purposes.

 

[Travel_Mate]

You don't think they should be doing it, or you didn't previously know it happened?
I can understand it, if they're committed to their section surviving.
I don't know whether I'd choose to attend a 5 day conference in Germany with economy travel either way & not being allowed to take time off while there (unless you pay for the fare yourself) if I were in that situation ... I really hate being jammed-in so tight for so long, I don't think I would.

Now apologies about the poorly-formatted multi-quote as I don't know how to do it here:
...
> And please grow up with the whole "Fox News Australia"
> thing, any mainstream media organisation (including the
> ABC) would run with such a story as it generates likes and
> clicks.
...

Ah sorry I didn't intend to single them out as the only media outlet that would do that, I just used the one which has the best combination of "everyone reading this blurb will know the name of" and "everyone reading this blurb will know them as unashamed liars" for exaggerative purposes.

"I don't know whether I'd choose to attend a 5 day conference in Germany with economy travel either way & not being allowed to take time off while there (unless you pay for the fare yourself) if I were in that situation ... I really hate being jammed-in so tight for so long, I don't think I would."

If you travel domestic/overseas on behalf of the Federal Government its automatically Y/J, that's why I'm not sure why you'd need a J approval for a Y trip, and IF you still ended up flying Y internationally you wouldnt be expected to work the next day.....and I'm sorry, all mainstream media are slimeballs looking for their next like and click.

 

[Forg]

If you travel domestic/overseas on behalf of the Federal Government its automatically Y/J, that's why I'm not sure why you'd need a J approval for a Y trip, and IF you still ended up flying Y internationally you wouldnt be expected to work the next day.....

I personally suspect it's a blocker to discourage spending money at all. The approval for what actually only costs $6k has to go all the way up to the minister for her department as well, due to the way the approvals are done & let's call it the "approved cost" blowing out to the amount which triggers ministerial approval (I doubt the minister lays eyes on it personally - just needs approval by their department), so if you DO need to travel you need to get all of those ducks in a row many months beforehand. This stuff came in a few years ago when the department had a "total travel ban except for critical functions" and never went away (and now I think about it I'm pretty sure the department has changed/been-amalgamated-with-others since then, so those hurdles have been retained despite a change in structure).

I would be very willing to believe this is all cough that's not even department-wide, especially with your surprise at it ... I personally think her direct management are pretty incompetent & wouldn't mind they've implemented all this stuff & presented it as though it were department-wide.

 

[Travel_Mate]

I personally suspect it's a blocker to discourage spending money at all. The approval for what actually only costs $6k has to go all the way up to the minister for her department as well, due to the way the approvals are done & let's call it the "approved cost" blowing out to the amount which triggers ministerial approval (I doubt the minister lays eyes on it personally - just needs approval by their department), so if you DO need to travel you need to get all of those ducks in a row many months beforehand. This stuff came in a few years ago when the department had a "total travel ban except for critical functions" and never went away (and now I think about it I'm pretty sure the department has changed/been-amalgamated-with-others since then, so those hurdles have been retained despite a change in structure).

I would be very willing to believe this is all cough that's not even department-wide, especially with your surprise at it ... I personally think her direct management are pretty incompetent & wouldn't mind they've implemented all this stuff & presented it as though it were department-wide.

Current WOAG policy approvals for international is as follows:

Up to 2 people - SES band 2
3-9 people - SES band 3
10+ people - Dept Secretary

Never needs to go to the Minister

 

[RAM]

Since Lufthansa was mentioned in the original post, they themselves offer ticketing on trains in Germany. Nothing says QF wouldn't do the same.

I do believe CBR-SYD is not exactly a big earner for QF (and many airlines have come and gone offering services ex CBR without including SYD in the mix, DJ / VA is one that springs to mind). I strongly suspect if there was a HSR service which departed CBR and went to SYD T1 / T3 that would suit QF just fine, especially if they got to sell tickets on the service as a code share.

Not sure what you class as a 'big earner' - but Q gained equivalent of $2.4 billion in after tax profits thanks to all the subsidies they received with nothing required in return. Even firing nearly 2,000 Q workers (illegally as the Courts have ruled) saw not one tax payer $ impacted.

Similarly, why are the senior public servants working for the ACCC also recipients of 'free' Chairmans' Lounge memberships? Perceived conflicts of interest & how many times has Q been fined for breaching Australian Consumer Law? Such as refusing to provide refunds - for example?

The public must see that Australia is not a modern day version of Orwell's 'Animal Farm'. Well worth reading if you were not required to do so during school days.

 

[Princess Fiona]

Yes - there is no CL at international. They just use the F Lounge and private rooms within. I believe CLs can access the F lounge at any time, even when not flying QF/OW.

There are also other generic arrangements at SYD for VIPs - special rooms & catering that can be applied [and paid] for - but the QF F Lounge in SYD is tough to beat, so understandable they would use that

Cheers,
Matt.

There is no longer anytime access to the Flounge for CL.
That was removed IIRC around 2018

Must be flying OW to enter

 

[CaptJCool]

We will never see high speed rail on the eastern seaboard while Qantas is lavishing benefits on politicians...

No we won’t. I took the ride from Sydney to Canberra and the terrain would make the infrastructure build highly expensive. Getting over the great dividing range and getting into Queanbeyan ....

That's surprising, I do work with a federal department and the invoices I see which are charged to the department are the discounted prices. The fee paid to the said travel agency is miniscule compared to the invoiced fare vs full retail price.

https://www.finance.gov.au/government/travel-arrangements/fly-air-travel

no FF points on WOAG airfares and discounted fares which are administered by QBT

however, IT APPEARS it’s a mandatory deal for some entities and govt agencies or departments but not for everyone

About the Travel Arrangements | Department of Finance

The key objectives of the Arrangements are to:

www.finance.gov.au

eligible participants

 

[Steve54]

It should be an issue for the new Integrity Commission to address and adjudicate on.

 

[offshore171]

Getting over the great dividing range and getting into Queanbeyan ....

…is a lot easier than running fast rail through the Swiss alps. Yet they did that.

 

[Franky]

…is a lot easier than running fast rail through the Swiss alps. Yet they did that.

And they even built a 32km tunnel thru the Italian Alps to connect Italy and France. Please take a reality check. The Swiss Alps are a part of Western Europe which is about the same size as Australia, and they have a combined population of about 500m people, plus another 50m+ tourists every year to make HSR viable in the EU. Australia has 25m people, half of whom are lifters, the rest are leaners. How are we going to pay for HSR (just for the East Coast as always)? Sydney just finished a light rail system on level ground about 13km in length, and only cost $3.3bn!! And you want the rest of Australia to pay for HSR on your little part of the country?

 

[Hvr]

Bullet trains in Australia? It's a terrible idea

Who doesn't love bullet trains? They gobble up scenery at the rate of almost five kilometres per minute, they take you from city centre to city centre, they're comfortable, sleek and exciting and their safety record is second to none.

www.traveller.com.au

Here's an argument why HSR isn't viable in Australia.

Having travelled on the Japanese Shinkansen and on Chinese HSR, I can see why it works there with the population denisty which just isn't here in Australia.

 

[Danger]

Let's face it, politicians are likely to obtain some degree of status with lounge access based on their official travel alone.
By granting lounge access and the perks of status even if it's via flying alone, they are already not experiencing air travel in the same way as the average "Aussie battler".

I don't think the average Aussie battler is found inside any airport lounge.

Glad this question is raised. There is some good reasons as to why there is a limit on the value of gift given to members of parliament. I am surprised this practice is running unchallenged for so many years.

Who's going to challenge it?

Most wouldn't know that both of the major parties maintain a private database of constituents, sourced from the electoral roll. The good offices are meticulous at tracking enquiries from constituents. If you phone or write a letter, for example, that's logged in the private database. The Liberal Party's is called Feedback. I forget the name of Labor's. There a multitude of tags that can be assigned to a person. When I first viewed my entry, it showed I was a strong voter for a particular party. It was wrong, but that's by the by.

Are you sure, on the receiving of points? Provided they book through the right channels, then I don't believe they earn points when travelling on duty; only SCs. Their contracts and rate access with QF/VA and others would cover this. Same applies to hotel stays (if booked on the right rates - harder to control). Government rates generally get the nights or stays to accumulate towards status, but not the points.

Cheers,
Matt.

This is correct. As part of the WoAG travel advice, those on Commonwealth funded travel are entitled to SC's only, not frequent flyer points. The booking is usually organised by a team/agency that sells seats on a certain fare class which will automatically set the points earned to 0. This is my understanding.

Last time I checked, the guidelines for federal parliamentarians and their staff simply say 'You don't earn points', not that you're prohibited from doing so. It's like saying 'You don't eat meat'. Then one day, suddenly, you do. In other words, points can (and are) earned but it's very much the exception, not the norm.

Is that because they are entitled to F class when travelling international?

No, in fact I think they are obligated to decline F upgrades… It’s the CL membership that gets them in. It’s QFF top tier, so also has the perks of WP/P1 and OWE

First class travel has been out for many years (at least a decade). I'm not aware on a prohibition on taking F upgrades, but if a parliamentarian does, they are supposed to declare it on the Register of Members' Interests and the Register of Senators' Interests. A cursory glance at both will show that not all politicians who have Chairmans Lounge membership actually declare it. There's no policing, because the police are the policitians themselves.

(Incidentally, I don't understand why Qantas spells it "Chairmans Lounge" and not "Chairman's Lounge".)

Nobody who travels on a federal government ticket gets FF points, SC I believe is still fair as the value is to getting LTS and LTG, as I assume their CL will be revoked when they leave office (with possible exceptions of former PM's etc)

Absolutely they dont, govt discounts with QF/VA are in the order of 20% for domestic and up to 40% for international, in exchange Qantas doesnt award FF points to the traveller, only SC

Federal politicians (and staffers) haven't earned FF points since 2010 for travel when the then Finance Minister, Lindsay Tanner signed new travel contracts with both Qantas and Virgin.

Not correct on the earning. See above.

It was indeed Lindsay Tanner who gave a parting middle finger to his colleagues.

I've noted it on this forum more than once before (as this subject is like a merry-go-round), I've stood face-to-face with Alan Joyce at a function at parliament house and been told it costs Qantas more to ensure the points don't post, then to actually award the points. Of course, to 99% of Australians, it's all about politicians getting more benefits; the fact it costs more to prevent it means nothing to them.

There is no longer anytime access to the Flounge for CL.
That was removed IIRC around 2018

Must be flying OW to enter

Former speaker Peter Slipper had a name for (among other things, obviously) dropping by the CBR lounge for more than the odd meal, even when he wasn't travelling.

...

no FF points on WOAG airfares and discounted fares which are administered by QBT

however, IT APPEARS it’s a mandatory deal for some entities and govt agencies or departments but not for everyone

About the Travel Arrangements | Department of Finance

The key objectives of the Arrangements are to:

www.finance.gov.au

eligible participants

As above.