Article: Why Qantas Points Are Not a Real Currency

[justinbrett]

Gosh, a recent article referring to FF points as a 'currency'. I guess you just answered your own question? Did anyone at that time moan that Virgin Velocity was being singled out or that the article was click-bait?



Another one for whom Flyertalk seems a good fit. Also, see the Virgin article. Damn click-bait everywhere, eh?



Well, a 22% margin looks pretty by far to me, but YMMV.

The ET article doesn't claim that Velocity is a literal currency. Neither did any of the QF articles posted earlier. That is my point.

I think we all agree that frequent flyer programs are like currencies, but do not meet the strict economic definition of a literal currency - which is what this AFF article was refuting. My point was I don't think anybody ever said it was a literal currency, to the point of investing in it etc.

The AFF article contains very little QF specific information (unlike the ET article which speaks specifically about the ways you can use Velocity points) and could just as easily have been written about any frequent flyer program.

We all know why - Qantas gets clicks, especially with an indication of a negative story (which it's actually not if you read the article, but if you just read the headline you would think as much. hence the click bait claim).

This is not the Qantas Frequent Flyer site. Plenty of people on here that don't fly Qantas and use all the different programs available. It was unnecessary to make this about Qantas and would have been far more useful and interesting to include other programs like Velocity - where there are actual exchange rates between programs.

 

[RooFlyer]

This is not the Qantas Frequent Flyer site. Plenty of people on here that don't fly Qantas and use all the different programs available. It was unnecessary to make this about Qantas and would have been far more useful and interesting to include other programs like Velocity - where there are actual exchange rates between programs.

AFF Gazette can speak for themselves, but its also not a Qantas Frequent Flyer site - it covers many aspects of flying/airlines but not surprisingly focusses on Australian airlines and also, not surprisingly, on Qantas, being the biggest by a large margin , as is its FF program.

However there IS a dedicated Qantas/QFF forum on this site and that will be the focus of the 10's of thousands of members of this site's compliments and complaints. Sometimes AFF Gazette picks up on member's themes and comments too.

I perceive you get irritated by the sometimes focus on Qantas, particularly its faults and failings, which have been manifest in the post C19 recovery period. As per the above, its the dominant player by a significant margin so the attention should not be surprising to anyone.

 

[justinbrett]

AFF Gazette can speak for themselves, but its also not a Qantas Frequent Flyer site - it covers many aspects of flying/airlines but not surprisingly focusses on Australian airlines and also, not surprisingly, on Qantas, being the biggest by a large margin , as is its FF program.

However there IS a dedicated Qantas/QFF forum on this site and that will be the focus of the 10's of thousands of members of this site's compliments and complaints. Sometimes AFF Gazette picks up on member's themes and comments too.

I perceive you get irritated by the sometimes focus on Qantas, particularly its faults and failings, which have been manifest in the post C19 recovery period. As per the above, its the dominant player by a significant margin so the attention should not be surprising to anyone.

I perceive you get irritated by any point I make and disagree with me for the sake of it.

You haven't come up with a single reason supporting why this should be a specific QF story other than QF being the largest airline in this country (which is ridiculous, if you're writing a story about something that affects all Australian supermarkets, you don't write it about Woolworths because it's the biggest retailer - and if a mainstream article wrote that they'd lose a lot of credibility).

The very fact this is trying (at least in the headline) to write a negative article about QF despite it being nothing unique to QF proves my point entirely.

I'm the first to point out QF's failings. I haven't been able to view my bookings for almost a week until late last night. If you want to write an anti-QF story, use real content that matters, trying to make something out of nothing just makes you look silly.

 

[Mr H]

I feel like there may be something personal going on.

From my observations, people have joked for a number of years that Qantas points are a de facto second currency in Australia. I imagine Qantas is quite happy to give oxygen to the claim. I guess people say it about Qantas rather than any other FF program because:

(a) Qantas is quintessentially Australian and fits with the narrative about being Australia's second currency;​

(b) Qantas points are easier to collect than any other FF program; and​

(c) they are probably desired more widely than other FF points.​

That's just the way it is.

I don't think the article would have worked as well talking about FF programs as a generic thing because

(a) people don't think of other FF points in such a way - they think of them (perhaps incorrectly) more as indivisible from the airline and only associate them with flying;​

(b) most readers of the article would collect QF points actively even if they don't fly, making the article more relatable than talking about generic points;​

(c) there has been more recent analysis on the value of QF points than other programs that can be included in the article; and​

(d) it relates to an oft made claim.​

​

I don't think the headline is even slightly negative at all about Qantas. It simply sets out to debunk the fanciful claim that Qantas points are a second currency by examining what constitutes a currency. I found it an interesting read.

 

[RooFlyer]

I perceive you get irritated by any point I make and disagree with me for the sake of it.

I suggest your perception is wrong. I have given very many 'agrees' and even 'likes' to your posts in other threads. Perhaps you haven't noticed.

Where I disagree is your over-sensitivity to posts and articles that criticise Qantas or even looks at Qantas specifically such as in this article. Now of course that's your privilege but it leads to some poor or erroneous arguments in my view, which I might address.

For example, you keep saying that no-one thinks it is a 'literal currency' and therefore the basis for the article is off. That's a straw man argument, surely? If I 'crash and burn' no one thinks that's literal. 'Currency' is obviously just a term in common usage - like mutual favours or insider gossip are sometimes described as currency in political circles.

AFF Editor had chosen as a topic the view that many hold that Qantas FF points are a currency. You yourself have found an example of that as a description of points. You can have the view that it would have been a better article is discussing all FF points. Fair 'nuf. But along the way you raise other non sequiturs such as challenging if anyone has ever described such as a currency and that's where we disagree, amongst others.

 

[justinbrett]

I suggest your perception is wrong. I have given very many 'agrees' and even 'likes' to your posts in other threads. Perhaps you haven't noticed.

Where I disagree is your over-sensitivity to posts and articles that criticise Qantas or even looks at Qantas specifically such as in this article. Now of course that's your privilege but it leads to some poor or erroneous arguments in my view, which I might address.

For example, you keep saying that no-one thinks it is a 'literal currency' and therefore the basis for the article is off. That's a straw man argument, surely? If I 'crash and burn' no one thinks that's literal. 'Currency' is obviously just a term in common usage - like mutual favours or insider gossip are sometimes described as currency in political circles.

AFF Editor had chosen as a topic the view that many hold that Qantas FF points are a currency. You yourself have found an example of that as a description of points. You can have the view that it would have been a better article is discussing all FF points. Fair 'nuf. But along the way you raise other non sequiturs such as challenging if anyone has ever described such as a currency and that's where we disagree, amongst others.

You're all over the place.

Nobody disagreed that QFF - or other FF programs including Velocity - are like a currency (including yourself). It is. You can earn and redeem, which is the dictionary definition of a currency ("something that is used as a medium of exchange" - dictionary.com).

What I was questioning was why it needed to be debunked that it was a literal currency by economic definitions - which is what this article was about. I've never seen anything, by anyone, that suggested it was.

QF has never made the claim. In fact the opposite, it says its points hold no value.

I've made my point (whether you agree with it or not) and I'll leave it there.

 

[Mr H]

What I was questioning was why it needed to be debunked that it was a literal currency by economic definitions - which is what this article was about. I've never seen anything, by anyone, that suggested it was.

QF has never made the claim. In fact the opposite, it says its points hold no value.

It has been used - perhaps as a quip - by so many over the years that it definitely merits an article:

Do your Qantas points still have currency?

It's becoming harder to earn Qantas frequent flyer points. Here's how to get the best out of them.

www.theage.com.au

What if Qantas sold its frequent flyer program?

It's enough to make the program's millions of customers think the sky is falling.

www.smh.com.au

Time to ditch your Qantas frequent flyer points?

Anybody sitting on a pile of Qantas frequent flyer points has one question front of mind this weekend: are my points safe?

www.traveller.com.au

Is Qantas a cryptocurrency in the making?

<p>Qantas points are already Australia's de facto second currency. Switching to blockchain would make it a real one.</p> . Find out more at Intelligent Investor.

www.intelligentinvestor.com.au

 

[NM]

Well I did manage to convince the salesman at a major national appliance retailer company to "price match" a coffee machine against the QFF store!. There was a discount promotion at QFF that included the same model coffee machine, and I noted I would acquire the required number of points through buying a certain quantity of wine. So when accounting for the value of the wine, it was going to cost me $X to buy the coffee machine from Qantas, which through my creative accounting ended up being a reasonable discount off the markers price of the coffee machine at the bricks and mortar store.

The salesman tapped away as his computer, went to see the store manager and then returned with a "if you buy it right now, we can will match that price". Twas about $100 cheaper than any other recent offer I had seen for the same machine.

I thought that was good win for a "not a real currency" price match, especially when you add in the mix of QFF points and wine into the value proposition statement ... but I did miss out on acquiring some wine in the same transaction (though I really did not need the wine).

 

[oz_mark]

The ET article doesn't claim that Velocity is a literal currency. Neither did any of the QF articles posted earlier. That is my point.

I think we all agree that frequent flyer programs are like currencies, but do not meet the strict economic definition of a literal currency - which is what this AFF article was refuting. My point was I don't think anybody ever said it was a literal currency, to the point of investing in it etc.

Your question was:

And did anybody ever say it was a currency?

And I think people have given evidence that journalists and bloggers have indeed referred to it as a currency.

 

[justinbrett]

It has been used - perhaps as a quip - by so many over the years that it definitely merits an article:

Do your Qantas points still have currency?

It's becoming harder to earn Qantas frequent flyer points. Here's how to get the best out of them.

www.theage.com.au

What if Qantas sold its frequent flyer program?

It's enough to make the program's millions of customers think the sky is falling.

www.smh.com.au

Time to ditch your Qantas frequent flyer points?

Anybody sitting on a pile of Qantas frequent flyer points has one question front of mind this weekend: are my points safe?

www.traveller.com.au

Is Qantas a cryptocurrency in the making?

<p>Qantas points are already Australia's de facto second currency. Switching to blockchain would make it a real one.</p> . Find out more at Intelligent Investor.

www.intelligentinvestor.com.au

None of them suggested it was a literal currency - and I already posted a similar (very recent) article discussing the same for Velocity.

Avios in particular is often discussed as a currency as it's used by multiple airlines. It is probably the most currency-like FF program, yet it would still fail the tests in this article. Velocity is also more like a currency as points can be exchanged both to and from it, unlike QFF.

I don't have a problem with the article itself, it's just not specific to QF at all, and it's weird that it was framed as such.

Your question was:


And I think people have given evidence that journalists and bloggers have indeed referred to it as a currency.

My initial question was poorly worded, fair cop - but the intent was who said it was a real currency?

 

[Cruiser Elite]

All FF pts are as good as currency to me - accumulate enough quickly enough and you exchange for flts - clearly currency IMHO

 

[QF_Flyer]

I'd mostly agree with you there, but notwithstanding, you are able to buy other stuff with Qantas points. If you have gazillions of QFF points, and don't wish to (or can't) fly, then goods purchases CAN be OK value

Agree with this, look at the points auctions that QF offered during the pandemic - those items/experiences went for ludicrous amounts, I would assume to people that have enormous points balances and will likely never use them for flights, or have so many it doesn't matter.

 

[QF029]

I don't think anyone thinks QFF points are literally currency, it's more an expression. A fairly pointless article IMO.

 

[Duffa]

Fear not, fellow travellers.
Etihad is also now admitting that its points are worthless....!

 

[bashworth]

I don't actually think them as a currency because they aren't that easy to transfer, and the value changes depending on how you spend them. . . but I still assign a value of $0.01 to each point.

This helps me:

1. View the opportunity to get points on a non flight purchase be the equivalent of a 1% discount so I can decide if its better to buy elsewhere for a lower price.
2. Value the points available for a Q flight to see if its better to use another airline as the equivalent may be worth a greated percentage.

Yes I do know if I use the points for a classic reward they are worth more than $0.01 but $0.01 is the minimum value I want to get before I spend them.

This attitude mean't that last year with lots of points and limited ability to get classic awards, due to the post COVID situation, I was happy to save $3,000 on a 'Trip A Deal" holiday for 300,000 points

 

[p--and--t]

I also consider a bit "click baity".

The title could have easily been phrased as why airline points or loyalty points aren't currency.

Expanding further there is a focus on the members and points in the above discussion on what is held in the"end point" QF and VA programs but I don't see much discussion on the loyalty point stores held by card companies/banks before "Conversion" to ff points.

I.e. I would be interested in what AMEX holds in points before users convert them to ff points in a particular program to redeem them. Similarly the "big 4" hold a lot of points in their own programs that can be traded for ff points. How many points are held by flybuys before being convertsd to the various pathways; to VA, to Coles, to Gift Cards to holidays, to store purchases. What is the comparituve size of these source point stores prior to conversion to ff points et al.