Ask The Pilot

[jb747]

I think every pilot should get at least a basic aerobatics rating and do some amount of formation flying. The first time anyone sees a full on spin should not be when they are PIC with 500 hours of straight and level having experienced nothing more than 60 degree AOB in the PPL syllabus and auger in as a result.

I'm not sure that I really see a great deal of value in formation flying...but it is fun, especially rejoining at night (though I very much doubt that is ever done in the civilian world).

Military training is, no doubt, a lot more rigorous but really flying at Mach II or 80kts - Dead is dead and you are the only one going to save your bacon if it all goes to cough.

I wasn't so much thinking of the 'rigour' of military training...more the willingness to throw students into the very deep end, coupled with an equal willingness to terminate the training of around 50% of all trainees, without regard to how much of the course they'd completed, or how much it had cost. I recall hearing a person involved in one of the airline cadet training schemes proudly saying that they had a 95% pass rate, and comparing their training to the RAAF course. Given that the RAAF fail virtually half of their students, I'm not sure that I'd be all that proud of such a pass rate....everyone will pass if you set the bar low enough.

I had around 2500 hours at that point but only around 300 in turbine aircraft. I got into a situation on approach with too much drag and turbine not spooled up (result = high vertical speed - down!!). That incident got my attention and reminded me of what I was doing. Speaking to a much more experienced pilot at the time (an ex Mirage jockey) about that incident and he replied “you have not lived until you’ve had after burner on just to stay on glideslope” ...

The combined joys of relatively slow spool up and being slow. The example of the Mirage that your friend gave was probably about an order of magnitude worse...the drag rise in deltas if you let them get slow is, well, interesting, to say the least (and the A4 was benign compared to the Mirage).

 

[mjt57]

the drag rise in deltas if you let them get slow is, well, interesting, to say the least (and the A4 was benign compared to the Mirage).

If that wing design has some serious "flaws" why was it ever adopted? What advantages outweighed the bad points?

 

[darrend]

I'm not sure that I really see a great deal of value in formation flying...but it is fun, especially rejoining at night (though I very much doubt that is ever done in the civilian world).

Was really just thinking about getting a concept for relative motion, how fast things happen, more an awareness of how the aircraft moves in space etc. At least do it for a bit to see.

The combined joys of relatively slow spool up and being slow. The example of the Mirage that your friend gave was probably about an order of magnitude worse...the drag rise in deltas if you let them get slow is, well, interesting, to say the least (and the A4 was benign compared to the Mirage).

Indeed!! In talking to those that have flown the beast - very easy to track around the circuit with all the correct numbers ASI wise and yet be plumetting to earth. Key thing it seems to stay on top of balance.

Engine out is another story - High key - 15,000' | Low key 7,500' | Flare at 300'. That would be an hightened awareness event !! I think there is handle somewhere for that situation.

 

[jb747]

In talking to those that have flown the beast - very easy to track around the circuit with all the correct numbers ASI wise and yet be plumetting to earth. Key thing it seems to stay on top of balance.

I don't think anything about that aircraft fell into the 'very easy' category. Basically in a delta, at low airspeed (which could well still be a high number), where it is pointed, and where it is going are only loosely related.

 

[jb747]

If that wing design has some serious "flaws" why was it ever adopted? What advantages outweighed the bad points?

Everything in aviation revolves around trade offs. The deltas have a lot of wing area for a given span. They are excellent high speed wings. They don't have a classic stall, but instead give you a very high drag/high alpha scenario. They normally (but not always) have high approach speeds, and so need a fair bit of runway. At times in the cycle of fighter development, slow speed behaviour, and runway requirements, were not high on the priority list.

 

[NM]

They normally (but not always) have high approach speeds, and so need a fair bit of runway. At times in the cycle of fighter development, slow speed behaviour, and runway requirements, were not high on the priority list.

Until the runway becomes a sheet of steel pitching on the ocean!

 

[jb747]

The A4 was one of only two 'tailed' deltas (that I can think of anyway) that made large scale service. The other was the Mig 21. Because they have a tail, they can have normal trailing edge flaps, and so approach speeds are much lower than the (always flapless) pure deltas.

Normal approach speed for the A4 was around 125 knots, which is really quite slow. On the other hand, that speed is about 65 knots below min drag speed, and for a lot of reasons that's not a place that you really want to be whilst flying an approach. Most approach speeds are 5-10% faster than V min drag.

In a normal case (say the 747), if the aircraft is disturbed on finals and slows, then it has less drag, and without a thrust input will tend to reaccelerate. Conversely, if it ends up a little faster, it has more drag, and so tends to slow. So, it's basically a stable speed.

If the approach is flown at min drag, a disturbance to the slow side results in more drag, and the aircraft continues to slow, whilst a disturbance to the fast side will give more drag and so it will slow again. So, it's stable on the fast side, but unstable on the slow.

Flying well below min drag will give the same speed instability on the low side, but now adds it on the high side as well. Holding a constant speed/angle of attack on an approach is an exercise in 'throttle bashing', and is very counterintuitive.

 

[simongr]

Have you flown NBW either before or after the engine incident?

If both have you noticed any difference in ops or performance?

 

[aplmac]

On my last DJ flight, across the aisle from me was a DJ captain, in uniform, but off duty. As we were trundling down the taxiway and taking off, I was wondering (and here is my question) - when flight crew are off-duty SLF, do you still go through the mental motions of the whole takeoff/landing process as if you were on-duty?

 

[HarryB]

I, like many others, have thoroughly enjoyed reading this thread and can't thank contributors enough. My wife is not too pleased at hearing about some of the details JB has been kind enough to disclose regarding QF30 as we sit here in the SIN QP but i keep filling her in anyway!

Since it was already 80 or so pages when I started there is still quite a lot I haven't read yet so I apologise if this has already been covered;

My question is related to wind sheer. I have heard it referred to on programs like air crash investigation and media reports about close calls and the like and wondered exactly what it is. I understand it can have potentially dire effects on the ability of a plane to stay in the air so what is the wind/air doing at the time and how is it "seen" other than via reports from other planes?


Sent from my iPhone using AustFreqFly app

 

[MEL_Traveller]

True, but I would imagine that strictly speaking you don't need it on prior to the briefing, otherwise they wouldn't let FA's stand during the briefing either.
After you have been told how to use it you have no excuse.

it's not so much about how to put the seat belt on - it's about how to get it off as quickly as possible in an emergency. The critical element is how to unfasten.

 

[sutho58]

Until the runway becomes a sheet of steel pitching on the ocean!

ah,, but what happens when the arrestor wire snaps??

 

[jb747]

Have you flown NBW either before or after the engine incident?

If both have you noticed any difference in ops or performance?

I flew Nancy last week. She had a couple of little glitches, though nothing out of the ordinary, and certainly nothing I would attribute to her extended vacation. I gather she's put on about 90 kgs, but hardly noticeable.

All of the aircraft have different performance figures...it's one of the things we check in the preflight...to make sure that the FMC is loaded with the correct variation. Nancy's isn't memorable.

 

[jb747]

On my last DJ flight, across the aisle from me was a DJ captain, in uniform, but off duty. As we were trundling down the taxiway and taking off, I was wondering (and here is my question) - when flight crew are off-duty SLF, do you still go through the mental motions of the whole takeoff/landing process as if you were on-duty?

Not normally. In fact, I can be asleep by the end of the take off roll....

 

[jb747]

I, like many others, have thoroughly enjoyed reading this thread and can't thank contributors enough. My wife is not too pleased at hearing about some of the details JB has been kind enough to disclose regarding QF30 as we sit here in the SIN QP but i keep filling her in anyway!

I can sugar coat QF30, but the reality is that the company did nothing wrong...nor did we, which is a really nice place to end up after a major event.

My question is related to wind sheer. I have heard it referred to on programs like air crash investigation and media reports about close calls and the like and wondered exactly what it is. I understand it can have potentially dire effects on the ability of a plane to stay in the air so what is the wind/air doing at the time and how is it "seen" other than via reports from other planes?

As it nears the ground, the aircraft exists in two different worlds. Everything that makes it work is related to the air flowing over the wings, but landing it needs to get to a spot on the ground, and taking off it needs to get away from it. An instantaneous change in the wind has an equally instant effect on the airflow, but the energy of the aircraft is related to the reference frame of the ground. I guess an extreme example would be an aircraft flying at 135 knots indicated, in a 135 knot headwind. Relative to the ground it would not be moving at all. If, in an instant, that headwind disappeared, the airspeed would instantly fall to zero, and the aircraft would fall, very much like a stone.

Obviously, in the real world that example doesn't exist, but it's not at all uncommon to fly approaches in wind gusting by 30 or 40 knots. We have a couple of counters to that (one of which is simply carrying more speed), but gusty conditions can be hard to handle. Windshear is probably over reported, as normally you're just being told about a gusty wind change, but if associated with a thunderstorm, it can exceed the performance capability of the aircraft (which simply means I don't have enough power to counter the wind's actions).

The aircraft help more now than they used to. Wind associated with rain can be detected by the radar, and as it measures the doppler changes involved it can detect areas of shear, and it will generate warnings based upon that (WINDSHEAR AHEAD). The inertial platform also comes into play, as the aircraft measures actual accelerations, and can generate a warning from that (WINDSHEAR, WINDSHEAR). Whilst it's possibly telling you something you might already know, it probably quantifies it a few seconds earlier than you might. The response to either warning is a full power go around.

Caution still remains a really good idea. I recall entering 02L in Singapore to take off, having a look at the radar, and deciding that discretion was a good idea. We taxied off the runway and waited about 30 minutes for the weather to improve. We were joined in our wait by a number of others, whilst we watched quite a few blast off into one of the best lightning displays I've ever seen.

 

[jb747]

ah,, but what happens when the arrestor wire snaps??

You need a new wire....

It happened twice (that I know of) in the time of the A4 (on the Melbourne). A USN exchange officer (Kevin Finan) had a wire break around 1975. There's a movie on youtube somewhere, but the canopy was gone before the aircraft reached the angle...and he lived to fly another day.

The other case was one of our own. The wire broke after having ripped about 20 knots off the aircraft, and he went of the end...and somehow managed to fly it away.

I also recall a series of still images which showed an arrestor hook engaging the wire, not by hooking the entire wire, but by hitting it on edge and splitting it. In that case the aircraft was successfully stopped by about 40% of the wire.

 

[sutho58]

no,, the pilot was Ltcdr Vines and the Melbourne had just come out of refit with new arrestor wires. Vines ejected just as the front wheel went over the side... 2 hours later we lost a sea king when the drive shaft snapped.. the video? we saw it 30 times sailing between JB and New Castle before we returned to GI..

 

[jkhastings]

Dear JB747,
I've just returned from India where I flew into/out of Delhi, Jaipur and Changidarh about 20 times on A319's, 737-700's and ATR72's. One thing I noticed was the Indian pilots seem to land much faster than the QF/DJ pilots in similar conditions. Naturally, I'm sure there are many variables, but my question is, have you noticed pilots from other carriers/countries landing at faster speeds? Finally, I'm wondering if you'll be my pilot on QF51/QF009 on June 18th? Going off to the Olympics!

 

[HarryB]

I can sugar coat QF30, but the reality is that the company did nothing wrong...nor did we, which is a really nice place to end up after a major event.

It's more a case of her not being a good flier so she lives on a world of denial. She doesn't share my fascination and appreciation of aviation. Sugar coating incidents helps no one and i hope the knowledge that you did all the right things helped you to deal with the after effects you alluded to earlier in the thread.

It's safe to say I'm not alone in being thankful for your openness regarding the whole episode.


Sent from my iPhone using AustFreqFly app

 

[Maca44]

no,, the pilot was Ltcdr Vines and the Melbourne had just come out of refit with new arrestor wires. Vines ejected just as the front wheel went over the side... 2 hours later we lost a sea king when the drive shaft snapped.. the video? we saw it 30 times sailing between JB and New Castle before we returned to GI..

Might be: 888 A-4G Pilot Ejects - Arrestor Wire Break HMAS Melbourne - YouTube