Ask The Pilot

[mjt57]

Some of us don't mind living here... though the endless pattern of ye oldie QF737's servicing us gets a bit tiresome.

When my son in law graduated he got a job with DoD working in Russell, a 'burb of Can'tberra. So, naturally we'd have to make regular visits to the place.

They lived right under the flight path, so it was interesting watching the aircraft on what I presumed was final (gear down, flaps out, wobbling about a bit). But we soon tired of it.

It took us 6 hrs to drive from Latrobe Valley, Cann River, C'berra. However, the few times that it took to get there by aircraft, the total journey was nearly as long, by the time we left home, got to MEL, etc.

I didn't mind the place. But then, we didn't live there, so for us it was a bit of a holiday in a new place. Did the V8 event there as well.

 

[Major]

What would be the career progression of a SO on the 380 ? Would he/she have come from the 747 stream or could they have done all their flying on the 380 ?

At what stage would they do their first landing (apart from SIM) ? What sort of hours do they need before progressing to FO ?

 

[jb747]

What would be the career progression of a SO on the 380 ? Would he/she have come from the 747 stream or could they have done all their flying on the 380 ?

At what stage would they do their first landing (apart from SIM) ? What sort of hours do they need before progressing to FO ?

The 380 SOs are quite a mix. Some were new hires, others came from the A330 and the 747 (300 & 400). A few were 767 FOs and took demotions.

They won't progress to FO on either the 380 or the 744 (there are no initial FO or Captain slots on those aircraft), but will have to go via the 737 or the 330. Seniority required for the 330 is such that even though a possible progression, it isn't likely...so for the vast majority, their next seat will be on a 737. I don't know what the hours requirements are these days, but suffice it to say, by the time they can get a slot, they'll have more than enough.

 

[jukebox333]

JB - I was pondering Kai Tak whilst on stopover in HKG last week.

One of my "no longer able to be achieved" bucket list items is a landing there.

Do you have any interesting approaches/landings there that are worth recalling here? How about your first time there?

Regards

Jukebox

 

[simongr]

The 380 SOs are quite a mix. Some were new hires, others came from the A330 and the 747 (300 & 400). A few were 767 FOs and took demotions.

They won't progress to FO on either the 380 or the 744 (there are no initial FO or Captain slots on those aircraft), but will have to go via the 737 or the 330. Seniority required for the 330 is such that even though a possible progression, it isn't likely...so for the vast majority, their next seat will be on a 737. I don't know what the hours requirements are these days, but suffice it to say, by the time they can get a slot, they'll have more than enough.

Just clarifying this for my non-Pilot structure brain - an SO gets an SO slot on the A380. If they want to be a FO then they have to go "back" to the 737 and become a FO, once they get to FO could they then go back to the A380?

 

[jb747]

Just clarifying this for my non-Pilot structure brain - an SO gets an SO slot on the A380. If they want to be a FO then they have to go "back" to the 737 and become a FO, once they get to FO could they then go back to the A380?

They aren't 'going back', because a 737 FO is a more senior position. To go from 380 SO to 380 FO would mean jumping over 4 other (more senior, and much more experienced) positions all of whom would have prior rights to that 380 FO seat.

Without wanting to labour the details...they are not qualified or experienced enough.

 

[jb747]

The old Hong Kong...

Actually it wasn't all that much more interesting than the current airport. The offset approach was unusual, but as long as you'd had a think about the wind before you flew it, it wasn't all that hard (though, I guess it's fair to say that quite a few didn't think about the wind beforehand). The videos of people getting it wrong have them invariably going downwind on the turn to finals, and then attempting to correct it in very close...never a good idea.

The current airport is possibly even more affected by nasty windshear than the old one. The only real positive is that there's an extra runway, and ILS approaches on all of them. I never went around at the old place, but I have done a couple of times at the new....

 

[Sprucegoose]

The old Hong Kong...

Actually it wasn't all that much more interesting than the current airport. The offset approach was unusual, but as long as you'd had a think about the wind before you flew it, it wasn't all that hard (though, I guess it's fair to say that quite a few didn't think about the wind beforehand). The videos of people getting it wrong have them invariably going downwind on the turn to finals, and then attempting to correct it in very close...never a good idea.

The current airport is possibly even more affected by nasty windshear than the old one. The only real positive is that there's an extra runway, and ILS approaches on all of them. I never went around at the old place, but I have done a couple of times at the new....

A mate of mine was laid up in hospital under the 13 approach reckons you could spot the rookies....not that much time to correct. CX boys always had it down pat.

Dont forget the wonderful departures on 31 as well and that terrific left bank/turn to avoid what you did incoming!


we did the platform for Chep lap lok. They reckon it was in the wrong place then however the race was on to open before the handover, which they didn't.

I made many flights to honkers and never tired of the buzz or that particular 13 approach

 

[jb747]

A mate of mine was laid up in hospital under the 13 approach reckons you could spot the rookies....not that much time to correct. CX boys always had it down pat.

CX used a slightly different technique, they would turn left a bit at the end of the IGS (the offset approach). That had the effect of making the final turn a bit bigger, but also made finals a little longer, and so gave more time. I never liked that method, as it moved you away from the ground markers (the turn track was lit, and stood out quite well), but the bigger turn also made it more likely that you'd need the extra distance...a bit of a zero sum game.

Dont forget the wonderful departures on 31 as well and that terrific left bank/turn to avoid what you did incoming!

We didn't really see it. The same as the approach really. Pilots tend to have tunnel vision, in that you only look at what you need, and simply don't notice the view. On the departure, all of the cues used to fly that track were inside the coughpit.

 

[Hvr]

The old Hong Kong...

Actually it wasn't all that much more interesting than the current airport. The offset approach was unusual, but as long as you'd had a think about the wind before you flew it, it wasn't all that hard (though, I guess it's fair to say that quite a few didn't think about the wind beforehand). The videos of people getting it wrong have them invariably going downwind on the turn to finals, and then attempting to correct it in very close...never a good idea.

The current airport is possibly even more affected by nasty windshear than the old one. The only real positive is that there's an extra runway, and ILS approaches on all of them. I never went around at the old place, but I have done a couple of times at the new....

So would it have been possible to land/take off an A380 at Kai Tak? I'm thinking of the approach etc rather than the actual runway composition/ground equipment.

 

[jb747]

So would it have been possible to land/take off an A380 at Kai Tak? I'm thinking of the approach etc rather than the actual runway composition/ground equipment.

No harder than any other aircraft. The approach simply required a 20 degree angle of bank turn starting at about 480 feet, and ending at about 300 feet. Bank was increased or decreased depending upon the wind, but should never exceed 30 degrees. Would have looked pretty spectacular from the 'checkerboard'.

 

[simongr]

[/COLOR]They aren't 'going back', because a 737 FO is a more senior position. To go from 380 SO to 380 FO would mean jumping over 4 other (more senior, and much more experienced) positions all of whom would have prior rights to that 380 FO seat.

Without wanting to labour the details...they are not qualified or experienced enough.

Thanks for the clarification - I guess to the uninitiated it would seem like a strange move to train someone on one aircraft and then go back to another before getting back into the first aircraft.

 

[chrisb]

Ask The Pilot

Thanks for the clarification - I guess to the uninitiated it would seem like a strange move to train someone on one aircraft and then go back to another before getting back into the first aircraft.

I find it more odd that once you're a captain you stay a captain and in theory you could move straight into the captains seat of an aircraft you've never flown before while sitting next to a FO with hundreds of hours on that type. I wonder if it annoys the FOs.

I guess it shows that being a captain is more about piloting experience in general than type experience.

 

[simongr]

Good points as much as knowing which buttons to press and nobs to turn - it is more important knowing how to manage the aircraft and the flight.

 

[The Rok]

Ask The Pilot

Is it possible for a pilot to go from SO straight to Captain? If they had the required leadership and flying skills? Say an ex Air Force pilot?

 

[jb747]

Is it possible for a pilot to go from SO straight to Captain? If they had the required leadership and flying skills? Say an ex Air Force pilot?

No, they need certain number of hours in company aircraft as FOs. In practice it would mean that every bloke in front of you hadn't bid for the seat, so it would have to be a pretty undesirable command position.

 

[jb747]

I find it more odd that once you're a captain you stay a captain and in theory you could move straight into the captains seat of an aircraft you've never flown before while sitting next to a FO with hundreds of hours on that type. I wonder if it annoys the FOs.

I guess it shows that being a captain is more about piloting experience in general than type experience.

The FO may have thousands of hours on type, but until he actually does the command course, he hasn't got the runs on the board. Virtually nobody fails a type course. Many fail command training. If it annoys them, they can, of course, put their hands up for a command slot....

Many an FO has excellent piloting skills, and knowledge of the aircraft. Being a Captain is all about management....

 

[docjames]

I drive over the westgate bridge in melbourne many mornings and often see the "heavies" making a left hand turn and they turn to fly from eastbound to northbound (ie coming in from the south end of the airport to land on the N/S runway) - they seem roughly in line with the princess freeway then "turn off" to "line up" with the airport. Quite glorious to see the 380s and 744s making a sweeping turn in the morning sun.

My perception is that there seems to be quite a variation in the "turn point" and height above ground - presuming you've done that approach what kind of height are the aircraft, and any idea how far from the WG bridge they are at the "roll out" of the turn? What restrictions are there on how early/late you can make that "turn"? Again, there seems quite a variation - some days seemingly lower and closer to the bridge, other days turn early and high. It may of course be perception rather than reality, but on an approach like this, how much "variation" is allowed? Obviously the closer to the airport the less variation, but is there a quantifiable amount or is it just to follow the localiser and/or ATC instructions?

 

[mjt57]

Many an FO has excellent piloting skills, and knowledge of the aircraft. Being a Captain is all about management....

I suppose that there's a difference between being in charge (the buck stopping with you) and having all care, no responsibility.

Speaking of seniority, after reading Richard's book, would I be correct in assuming that you have seniority over him?

From what I gathered from your posts is that you're at the lower end of the A380 captain ranks? If so, how come? I got the impression that most of the guys came from the A330s, then started taking people off of the B744s. If so, I would've thought that up until that point you and your fellow B744 drivers would have had seniority.

 

[SenZubEanS]

The 380 SOs are quite a mix. Some were new hires, others came from the A330 and the 747 (300 & 400). A few were 767 FOs and took demotions.

The BOLD part is what's got me. Given they wont progress on to FO on A380 directly from the SO spot, what would make somebody go for that? I mean, if they were a B767 FO, why then chose to be a back seat driver on the A380 which would then "progress" you back onto possibly a single aisle B737 to be a FO again?